Being Jewish with Jonah Platt

Racists, don't give a f**k about religion.

What made this particular
kind of racism so hard to see?

The British government are suppressing
information about the Holocaust.

When terrible stuff happens to Jews,
they must be in some way responsible.

Responsible.

Maybe they deserve it.

They kind of deserve it.

Yeah.

A few times this season, I've
mentioned the three books that

have been the most influential
in my journey of Jewish advocacy.

One is people love Dead Jews by Dara
Horn, who was on this show twice.

One is Israel by Noah Tishbe, who
will be on the show next week.

And the third, the one book I wish was
required reading for everyone on Earth.

His Jews don't count.

Written by my guest today.

He is a multi-talented creative
whose career spans numerous genres

and mediums, from sketch comedy to
children's books, to soccer anthems.

He's been a fixture on British TV and
radio for decades, which is probably

why most of you haven't heard of him.

But he was technically born in America, so
I think we're free to claim him as ours.

Sorry about the soccer thing.

Please welcome from across the pond,
author, comedian, filmmaker, and

public Jew extraordinaire, David Badal.

Thank you, Joah.

That was a very nice introduction.

Thanks.

Well deserved, David.

You were really the first person
at least that I came across to

name and explain this phenomenon.

Of leftist anti Jew racism back in 2021.

How did you decide to pivot into
nonfiction, which you hadn't

written before and and cover this
topic and in such a clear way?

So I was asked by the Times
literary supplement, which is a

posh newspaper that's run for years.

They said, we're gonna have essay
books, we're gonna have short

essay polemical books in the style.

They said.

Of George Orwell and Orwell used to
write these books called Things Like

Politics and the English Language,
and there's sort of punchy 10,000

word essays on the way we live now or
the way they live then or whatever.

And it was because it
was asked of me in 2019.

I. Round about the time that the Corbin
Labor Party, Jeremy Corbin used to be head

of the Labor Party, had gone through a
long period when something that I hadn't

expected to see, I guess in my lifetime,
which is that antisemitism as a thing,

as an issue, was suddenly live in British
politics like being talked about all the

times, uh, all the time that you would
see headlines in British newspapers about,

you know, existential crises involving
Jews, British Jews, almost as soon as.

I was asked, I said, I wanna write a
book about how the guardians, the people

who think about discrimination and
racism and offense and inclusion and

representation and all those things.

I. The people who worry about minorities,
they don't think of Jews as a minority.

You had observed that you
knew that's what was going on.

You said this is the thing.

I mean, I had done some stuff beforehand,
so in soccer, and I talk about this

in the book, um, there'd been a thing
that my football club, which is called

Chelsea, uh, every so often, there's
another club called Tottenham, right?

And they're perceived there's a Jewish
club and every so often there'd be

unbelievable anti-Semitic abuse.

Using the, what I call the why word.

It's I, we can perhaps go into very
specifically why I call it the Y word.

Mm. But for this, for this
podcast, I will use the word yid.

Mm-hmm.

There'd been a lot of this very
extreme antisemitism built around

the word yid involving also.

Chances about Auschwitz
and all sorts of things.

Oh, wow.

Because it wasn't a shock to me that they
were anti sea mindsets, soccer matches.

Sure.

What was important was that over
the course of time I'd been going

to football, the attitude towards
that kind of offensiveness in

football had shifted enormously.

So I started going, 'cause I'm
old to football in the 1970s

when everyone was a racist.

But by the time you get to 2008.

There's stuff in the, in the program
that says anyone spotted on CCTV or

by a steward doing any kind of racist
abuse will be thrown out, uh, and banned

for life, which is great, by the way.

I'm very supportive of
that, of that monitoring.

Right.

Unfortunately, none of that applied.

When someone started shouting at me and
my brother who go to Chelsea football

club every, every week, fuck the Jews.

Fuck the fucking Jews.

Fuck the fucking Jews.

Over and over again.

Following an out, a, a general amount
of chanting about the word yid at this,

at this other club and blah, blah, blah.

Specifically directed at you.

Basically what happened was the, the
whole crowd, I mean, this is something

you should know, is that it's not like.

Normally just one person.

It's like 30,000 people are
chanting y know, y know y know

this very, very violent sort
of y Jewish, anti-Jewish chant.

Uh, and I'm used to that.

But then on this one particular
time, a guy behind me started

shouting, fuck the Ys.

Fuck the yids.

And then when we turn round.

To sort of say, look, come
on mate, that's enough.

He started specifically
going, fuck the Jews.

Fuck the Jews over and over again, a a,
and actually in my book, because I always

like to humanize things, I say my older
brother, who I very much look up to and

think of as surrogate parent, 'cause my
parents were unbelievably neglectful.

He stood up this guy and he said, shut up.

Fucking shut up to this guy.

And there was a then a sort
of to and fro for a while.

And then the guy did sit down
and my brother sat down and he

said, I think I'm going to cry.

Mm.

And I still find that
kind of deeply moving.

But the important point really,
as I say, is not that there was an

anti-Semite at a football match.

The important point is
that no one did anything.

And when me and my brother tried,
which we did to contact the club, to

contact the stewards, to contact kick
races about our football, which was an

organization to talk to 'em about this,
we were met with kind of like, well.

You know?

Wow.

Is

it really a thing?

Anyway, this is a very
long way of saying that.

I had been talking about it before.

Yeah.

I actually made a film.

I made a film, a short film called The
Y Word, which has got lots of famous

soccer players from the time on it
trying to raise awareness of this issue.

Wow.

By the way, that film, that film was
met with unbelievable internet hatred.

What I'm talking about is
something which does apply.

To other minorities, which is a very live
concern, a very, um, monitoring policing

sense that we're trying our best to fight
back against unconscious bias, against,

you know, disenfranchisement against,
disempowering against all the things

that we know, we know have applied to all
sorts, and not just by the way, ethnic

minorities, also to gender minorities,
disabled people, et cetera, et cetera.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And yet, isn't there.

For Jews.

And the most extraordinary thing,
I think, and, and you, you probably

know this about me, but I should
have maybe said it earlier, my mother

was a refugee from Nazi Germany.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I think what is important about
that, and I know that, that, you know, in

some people this inspires not Jews, but
in some people inspires a sort of like

fatigue and yawn and all the rest of it.

But the closeness of that is
very, very strong within Jews,

and particularly within Jews who
have that level of connection.

To, to that level of trauma.

Yeah.

And so I think it is quite hard when what
I'm doing in that book and in that film

is saying it's a bit weird, isn't it?

That this minority is the one that
isn't thought of as vulnerable,

isn't thought of as prey to racism,
discrimination, extermination,

extreme violence is the one that very,
very, very recently generationally.

I, I, I, I was sort of there, I
mean, genetically without any doubt.

Right.

I mean, I don't know if you, in the
years since you've written this or while

you're writing it, thought about this,
but can you articulate what made this

particular kind of racism so hard to see?

So the book is really sort of
like, it begins like 12 examples,

one of which is the football one.

Mm-hmm.

Another one is, I, I go to kind
of high culture and low culture.

So for example, I talk
about the fact that, um.

In 2017, uh, radio four, which
is one of the most sort of, sort

of vanguard stations of the BBC,
it had Jeremy Irons reading every

single one of Ts Elliot's poems.

Right?

And one of ts Elliot's poems.

Burbank with a Beac, I
think, uh, has this line.

The rats are underneath the piles.

The Jew is underneath the lot.

And I remember thinking,
how are they gonna.

Get away with that one.

Maybe they won't have that
one, even though they're saying

they're doing the whole lot.

And of course they did have that one.

They had a Jewish academic
come on and try and make it.

Okay.

I didn't think he did make it.

Okay, but that really isn't the point.

The point is.

Yeah, there is loads and loads
of terrible racism in art and

literature from times past.

Mm-hmm.

That would not be on Radio
four on New Year's Day read by

Joe under any circumstances.

There's just no way.

Right.

If you imagine that supplanted to another
minority, it just wouldn't be there.

I'm sure people have said this on
your podcast already, but we exist

in a time very turbocharged by the
internet, whereby the easiest way of

seeing the world is a binary between
the powerful and the powerless.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, the oppressed and the oppressors.

And the trouble is that Jews
are a glitch in that binary.

Right.

Ju Jews are an absolute glitch in
that binary, because actually I accept

that some Jews are rich, some Jews
are powerful, certainly in America,

there's no question about that.

But Jews are also, they have an
enormous history of disempowerment, an

enormous history of disenfranchisement.

And lots and lots of Jews do not
fit the stereotype, including Jews.

In my immediate family,

there are 10,000 Holocaust
survivors in Los Angeles living

below the poverty line, you know?

Right,

exactly.

I mean, exactly.

Exactly.

And so the notion of.

Jewish power, which is, goes
back centuries and centuries

and centuries, well before.

Obviously the sort of, you know, what
we are talking about, which is a kind

of modern, if you like, left wing,
although I don't think it's just left

wing to be honest, but a modern way
of thinking about Jews, it persists.

And if the way you see the world
is, well, I'm on the side of the

vulnerable against the powerful, it is
somehow hard to see Jews as vulnerable

despite the unbelievable history.

But that's the part that's that, you know,
where the math ain't math in, you know,

it's, yes, it's the mass, you know, as,
as you said, you know, the Holocaust is

only 80 years ago, and yet there is this.

Very concrete perception of Jews
as as powerful despite, yeah.

Them being the most recent victim of
horrific mass genocide for which the

word genocide was invented, you know?

Yes, that's

correct.

Um, that's correct.

And also one of the things that
you said you had Dara on your show.

Yeah.

One, one of the things that is.

Interesting thinking.

People are like, oh, the Holocaust blah.

You know, they tend there.

There's an element of Holocaust fatigue.

You know, when I read Dara's book
and speaking to Dara, who was on my

film as well, there are so many other
places, places I had no idea where

Jews have been exterminated China.

There, there's been massacres of
Jews in China who knew, right?

There's been massacres of Jews
in India, there's been massac

of Jews all over the world.

I mean.

I went, uh, I actually have done a
documentary about Theodore Herzl.

Oh wow.

Uh,

and uh, yeah, I dunno if it's ever gonna
come out, but I have done it partly

'cause I didn't know much about him
and I wanted to learn more about him.

Uh, and I was in Basel where the
world's artist Congress was for,

and they just happened to have a
history of the Jews in, in Ed Basel.

It's all just, you know, we set
fire to them, we exiled them.

We tried to get some money from them.

Then we didn't pay them back,
so we set fire to them again.

Yeah, there it's, I mean it's
really, it's sort of amazing, right?

How much shit, you know, the Jews
obviously have been the extreme scapegoats

of whipping boys for Christian culture.

Other cultures as well were for
centuries and centuries, and yet.

It's interesting how meaningless that is.

You use the term anti-Jewish racism
in your book, which is a term

that I like and use all the time.

You use it more in your book than I've
heard it used, like collectively ever.

Yeah.

What do you think the aversion is, even
from Jews and Jewish organizations,

from calling it what it is, which
is a form of anti Jew racism?

Racism as a word seems to be.

Ringfence, particularly in
America for people of color.

If you asked me what was the one
bit in Jews, don't count that got

through that maybe landed with
people who don't really get it.

It's a bit where I say that most
people think that antisemitism.

I calling it that for the
moment, the antisemitism is

religious intolerance, right?

That's what they think It's, they
think that's why all those people

were killed in the Holocaust.

But that's wrong, and I can prove it's
wrong because I am an atheist, right?

And that would make no
difference to the Nazis.

I would still be shot
immediately by the Gestapo.

And in fact, my great uncle who
died in the Warsaw Ghetto was,

as far as I'm aware, an atheist.

He certainly wasn't an observer Jew.

And though not just the Nazis.

Those men chanting the Jews
will not replace us, right?

With like torches in Charlottesville,
they wouldn't ask me if I kept kosher

before they set fire to my house,

right?

So the point is, racist don't
give a fuck about religion.

As a result.

It's racism, right?

Because all they care
about is that your blood.

Is Jewish as far as they conceive it.

Mm-hmm.

And sadly, sadly, that's the thing
people sometimes say to me, oh

right, so you identify in terms
of how, what the racist think.

And I say yes, because that's what
racism is and that's why I call it

anti-Jewish RA racism rather than
anti-Semitism, which is a complicated

word anyway in terms of its history, but
also I think leads to that confusion.

Well, one thing I wanna mention that
I just like your phrasing of, and

I think I saw this, maybe it was in
an interview or, or maybe it was in

the documentary, that, uh, in terms
of the Jewish racism piece that.

Connects, I think is that we
are Jews by accident of birth.

Yeah.

As I've heard you say.

Yeah.

And I just, I just like
that turn of phrase.

I think that's a very
clear way to understand it.

Like there's nothing you can do about it.

Yeah.

It is who you are.

And if someone's hating you for that,
they're hating you for who you are.

Not because you go to Temple
on Rosh Hashanah or whatever.

It's,

yeah.

Well, well, I mean, on that note actually,
uh, you, you know, the terrible massacre

of, uh, 11 Jews in Pittsburgh in 2018.

Yeah.

You know, again, I've heard that.

Well, I've heard many things referred to.

I talk about it in that book as like
someone in Britain immediately decided

that was to do with Israel Palestine.

It wasn't other people dec have
decided it was to do with the

fact that they were at Senegal.

It wasn't, it was a far right shooter who
believed in the great replacement theory,

who believed as far right people do that.

Jews, because of this idea of power, are
secretly behind immigration and secretly

trying to undermine the white races
in America, and that's why he killed.

That many Jews, right?

He actually says, so that's so easy
for people to jump to conclusions

about how anti-Jewish hatred
starts, but in fact, you are right.

It always starts from an
accident of birth, which is then

stereotyped or imagined by racists
in very, very expected ways.

With Jews,

uniquely, you can punch up or
you can punch down at them.

They're the vermin, they're
the rats, but they're also.

Controlling the world and
the banks and the weather.

Why do you feel like Jewish
success uniquely is so resented?

Uh, more so than with perhaps
other minorities or ethnicities

where it's more admired or at least

neutral.

This.

A truth to that, that that Jews are
imagined by racists the way all other

minorities are in a low status way
as stinking, vile, thieving, alien

or whatever, but also in Jews case,
as monstrous in, in control of the

world, in control of politicians,
extremely rich, et cetera, et cetera.

In fact.

There's a weird con, whatever
the word is, con sanity.

That's probably not the word
between those two things.

So when you look at sort of Nazi
cartoons or indeed modern cartoons

of Jews, they will be both monstrous,
but they will also be in control of

the world or that sort of, uh, right.

A alien, octopus version of Jews,
that sort of both at once, right?

But the power thing is
unbelievably important.

It's unbelievably important, what you
just said about punching up, um, because

that is where you get a situation.

Whereby anti-Jewish racism feels
to a lot of people like heroism.

It feels to a lot of people
like virtuosity, right?

Righteous, uh, and right righteousness.

And you know, it, there's no question
that, Kanye, let's go to this.

You know, the hard end of this,
Kanye doesn't think that he's being.

A racist.

Right, right.

What Kanye thinks is he's punching
back at the people in control of the

world, but almost, almost specifically
his career or whatever else.

It's right.

You know, it's a, it's a fight back and,
and certainly in the creative arts, of

course, people are always interested in
the idea of the underdog fighting back.

That's what most films, you know,
most Hollywood films at some level are

about the underdog fighting back and.

The imagination of the
power is very, very easy.

It's a hop, skip, and jump all the
time to imagine that that is Jewish.

The question is a very good one about
why other minorities don't have this.

Yeah, I think we should be
careful a little bit about

speaking for other minorities.

I think there are Asians.

Who definitely feel,
feel, feel a bit of this.

Uh, and I think Asian Americans
particularly, uh, because they're very,

but in this country as well, there's
this sort of economic success, uh.

But it's, it's not quite the same.

Um, and one way in which I, I point
out that it's not the same, and again,

you must remember that I'm talking
mainly about the psychology of people

who care, the psychology of people
who would like racism not to exist.

Right.

Rather than psychology of the far right.

Or whatever.

Sure.

And, and there's lots of reasons
I, we haven't mentioned whiteness,

which I think is very important.

Yeah.

And obviously not all Jews are white.

It's incredibly important
to note that Jews are.

There's lots of Jews of color.

There's obviously many
Middle Eastern Jews.

The majority of Jews in Israel
don't even present as white.

Again, I don't really think
in terms of skin color, right?

I think in terms of racism and how
you have to think about racism, and

here's the problem with imagining
Jews as white, which is that races

for years and years and years
have not thought of Jews as white.

Of course, you know, within O,
obviously Nazi Germany, they're

not thought of white, but obviously
white supremacists in America.

Loads and loads of them don't
think of Jews as properly white.

And that's a constant throughout,
you know, racist history.

And so the word I use in the book is
schroder as whites, by which I mean

Jews are white or non-white, depending
on the politics of the observer.

So for the far right, Jews are non-white.

They're part of the non general,
you know, mess of non-white races

that should be kicked out of.

America or whatever.

Whereas for the left, I sometimes think
that their imagination of Jews is kind

of super white, sort of like Jews are
rich and powerful and all the things

that are associated with whiteness now.

And so therefore, there's a
woman who was one of these women

who was pretending to be black.

It's not the famous one, it's another one.

Okay.

Not, not Delle.

Wasn't that her name?

Yeah.

Not Rachel

Delle.

There's another one.

Yeah.

Okay.

There's another one who's
pretending to be black and.

When she was discovered like Rachel
Delle to be, to be actually not black.

There was a, you know,
huge shape make of her.

But in her particular case,
all the news about her said

that this woman is not black.

She's white and Jewish.

I. Jessica Krug, that's her name.

Mm.

Right.

She's white and Jewish.

And you kinda think like, why?

If you, why, why do you need to know that?

'cause the rad is that she's not black.

Right.

And I'll tell you why.

It's because somehow in the imagination,
her Jewishness adds to her whiteness.

It's somehow like she's more not
black as a result of being Jewish.

Right?

That's right.

And, and that's a big problem.

We are a minority who are discriminated
against for reasons and nothing to do.

Except with an accent of birth.

And that's what happens to
non-white people, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so

it doesn't really matter how
you actually present, even

though obviously you can pass.

Some people say that to me.

They say, well, Jews can pass.

Would you say to gay men,
don't worry about homophobia.

You can stay in the closet.

It's fine.

Right, right.

No, I don't think most Right on, right.

Most politically correct.

Most woke people would say
that to, to a gay person.

But they do say to Jews, well, you
have privilege because you can pass.

That's

exactly right.

In the book you talk about not having
an emotional connection to Israel.

Yeah.

And I actually emailed you
about this like a year plus ago.

Yeah.

You defined yourself as a non Zionist,
not an anti Zionist, but a non Zionist.

Yeah.

Uh, and, and sort of articulated.

Uh, I think both in, in interviews in
that email and in in the book, that

like your stance on that has sort of
been hardened by what you call a racist

pressure to be collectively responsible
for Israel, and you shouldn't have

to be just because you're a Jew.

Is, is your feeling.

That's correct.

I am wondering, obviously in, in
that sense, there's no emotional

connection, but can you at least,
uh, would you say intellectually

you can understand that Israel is.

A central piece to the religion and
necessary practically for the millions

of people who'd be dead without it.

Yes.

Uh, I mean, there's all sorts of
reasons why I, I obviously understand

Jewish emotional connection to Israel.

Uh, and I, I obviously, you know, when
people talk about, uh, you know, Israel

in turn, they, they sort of like don't
realize that it just exists as a thing.

So there are 7 million
people there who obviously.

The idea of, of them being
destroyed is a problem.

Right, right.

For people who just imagine that like,
yeah, that's the way to sort things out.

Here's the thing, as you
know, in Jews don't count.

I'm trying to say, can
we imagine Jews please?

As we imagine other minorities and other
minorities, and I know other minorities

have more countries, so it's slightly
different and the focus isn't so great,

but basically other minorities are
never held beholden in whatever way.

Pro or anti to a host country or a
heritage country 4,000 miles away,

right?

You know, I am quite close friends
with a British Chinese comedian called

Phil Wang, Chinese heritage comedian.

Brilliant comedian.

By the way, if anyone's watching and
I. I'm not aware of any person, any

person, but certainly not any person of
the left who would ever, ever go up to

Phil Wang and say, can you just tell me
before we carry on to it, can you just

tell me how you feel about the Chinese
government's treatment of the Uyghurs?

Uh, can you talk, I wanna know
because I can't really be friends

with you or No, I, but that's
never gonna happen to Phil Wang.

Right.

And until that does happen to
Phil Wang, I will continue to say.

I don't have to give you, not
you, not you, Jonah, but the

people endlessly demand it of me.

There's endlessly people say, why
haven't you spoken out by the, my

position on, on Israel Palestine?

Because the truth is, it's interesting.

I did interview this, what I was
gonna say about my documentary,

someone called Miriam Maritz,
who's a very famous actress here.

Mm-hmm.

Ria Margolis is, is Verily anti-Israel.

And what I noticed in my, in, in
my conversation with her is that

what she's also is much, much more
connected to Israel than I am.

She feels very connected to Israel.

She feels very like they're my people.

She said at one point, and I dunno
how you, she said to me could be so

like, you know, unbothered about what
your people are doing in your name.

And what I thought is, well that's
not how other minorities feel.

Other minorities.

And it's an extremely
important thing in anti-racism.

If they live somewhere,
that's what they are.

They're British.

Right, right.

Or they're American, or
whatever as it might be.

And it's very important
in the way we think about.

Immigration and cultural assimilation
and all that stuff that we don't

carry on thinking of these other
min of minorities as primarily

actually this, this other country.

Right, right.

So, so that's essentially my position and
I continue even in the face of it being,

I, I admit this by the way, that position,
which held for a long time and I still

hold it, but it's kind of overwhelmed now.

By something that I can't hold back,
which is people sort of like deciding

anyway, you know, Israel and Palestine
is such an important thing to talk about.

Now, you know that you
can't have this position.

Like, I think, well,
I'm, I'm still having it.

Have your feelings or connections
shifted at all since October 7th?

This is what happened with October
7th, which I think is more of an

emotional thing than anything else.

Uh.

Which is obviously I was moved
and upset by what happened.

Uh, obviously, and I did speak about
it on the BVC, I think I was moved in

a very particular way, which was, and I
think this is partly to do with, with how

I view Israel to some extent, which is
a country that doesn't feel to be very

Jewish in the way that I think about Jews.

Right, right.

And here's how I can explain
that, is that Jews don't count.

Only quite recently came out.

In, well, I mean soon after
October the seventh, it came

out in, in Israel, in Hebrew.

Right.

And I was being interviewed by Harts, you
know, the big progressive newspaper there.

Mm-hmm.

And the journalist, the young journalist
who was interviewing me, I said to

him, why do you think this book?

Because I was a bit pissed off about it.

Why do you think this book hasn't
come out in Israel until now?

I said, is it because
in the book, I'm quite.

Not dismissive as Israel, but I
make clear that it's not a country

that I feel immensely connected to.

There's quite a short chapter about
Israel and all the rest of it.

He said, no, I think it's not that.

He said, I think it's because your book
is about how Jews should be seen as a

minority, a proper minority in Israel.

They're not a minority,
they're the majority.

Right?

And

I never really thought about that.

And I said, oh, right.

That's interesting.

I said, but, but is it the case now?

And maybe that's to do with the book
coming out now that October the seventh,

made Jews in Israel feel like a minority.

Mm-hmm.

Even though they aren't a minority.

In fact, what I then said was,
is it the case that October the

seventh for perhaps the first
time, made Israelis feel like Jews?

Now, that's an incredibly
bleak view of Jewishness.

'cause what I really mean is
you have to be in a pogrom.

To understand what it means, but remember,
my mother was born in Nazi Germany.

Yeah.

I'm not an anti-Zionist.

I'm not a pros artist, but I would
say that the element of Israel that is

kind of macho, that is kind of like,
you know, fairly gun toting, fairly

kinda like bronze, blah, blah, blah.

Whatever doesn't feel very Jewish to me.

And I know it might be stereotypical of me
to imagine that Jews have to be all nehi.

I mean, you, you look fairly,
fairly ripped to be honest.

Well thanks.

But isn't that racist of you against Jews?

I don't think it's racist.

I think it's okay.

Let me tell you a joke, right, so
actually lemme tell you two jokes.

Is that okay?

Even better.

I do used to do a joke about how.

My best friend, this is true actually.

My best friend who was Jewish, uh, became
in his later life, became a Buddhist.

So a Jewish Buddhist that's like
someone who believes you should

renounce all your material possessions,
but still keep the receipts.

And I used to do that joke, and
then I decided not to do that

joke anymore because with my.

You know, expanding consciousness
about Jewish stereotyping and racism,

I thought, no, that plays into Jewish
stereotypes about Jews and money.

So I don't do it anymore.

I do re But I was once asked on
a radio show about Jewish comedy,

and I noticed that all the other
people, and they weren't Jewish, were

doing jokes about Jews and money.

And I thought, no, no, I'm not gonna
do a joke like that, even though I

know loads, I'm gonna do this joke.

And the joke was, there's an Englishman.

A Frenchman and a Jew on a park
bench, and the Englishman says, I'm so

tired and thirsty, I must have beer.

And the Frenchman says, I'm so
tired and thirsty, I must have wine.

And the Jew says, I'm
so tired and thirsty.

I must have diabetes.

Now you might think that's
a, it's not a racist joke.

What it is, it's a joke.

It's a Jewish person making a
joke about stereotypes of Jews

that I'm happy to play with.

Because I don't think that stereotype
of Jews that we're all hypochondriacs

play, it's not gonna lead to any
Jewish houses being burnt down.

Right?

Where, whereas the money one.

Actually that does,

going back to the October 7th of it all,
what would you say, if anything, surprised

you most about the world's response?

What I've noticed is if you talk, which I
did quite a lot at that time, and I still

do, uh, about antisemitism rising and
people being anxious about antisemitism

and terrible stuff that's been going on in
America and elsewhere in terms of attacks

on Jews, what will instantly happen.

Is that people will say, oh, right,
and, and you don't think it's much, much

worse for the people of Gaza, right?

You're not thinking about the
people of Gaza, all these Jews being

slightly, slightly uncomfortable.

What about, and what I think is
you see what you've done there

is exactly what I'm resisting.

What you've done there is assumed
that American Jews or British Jews,

that their situation needs to be
compared with Israel Palestine.

Right?

And, and it's almost impossible now.

To, to try and just talk about rising
antisemitism or indeed antisemitism

in any way without people immediately
accusing you of not caring about

terrible stuff happening to Palestinians.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

And, and of course I do care about that.

I do think it's terrible.

I do think the, you know,
everything should be done to stop

that happening, is what I think.

But I also think one should be able to
talk and define and explore and challenge.

Antisemitism and indeed its rise.

Without that being immediately
undercut with a comparison.

That in my mind is not
really a comparison.

I, I mean, what hap I tell you
what happens is that even quite

thoughtful people, certainly quite
left with people give a sense that

if there is un rising antisemitism,
if there is very awful violet attacks

on Jews, I think what happens is.

Particularly 'cause people just
immediately say, well obviously it's to do

with what's happening in the Middle East.

Right.

There's a sense in which it's
understandable right now.

I think that's really, really problematic.

A hundred percent.

It is.

At the same time, just the phrasing.

Well, that's understandable.

Is a kind of rationalizing excuse for it.

Your documentary that you made
also called Jews Don't Count.

Yeah.

What, what did you set
out to do with that?

How, how was it different or what
were you trying to do to expand

on what you had done in the book

at some level, which is very banal,
uh, I just wanted to spread the word.

You very kindly said you felt this is
a book that should be read by everyone.

Yeah, certainly I feel that.

Uh, and if you do a TV show, you
know, that's one way of doing it.

But then I did another thing, which was
a few people weren't sure about this, but

I. Did it was, I had some big stars on it.

I had David Schwimmer on it, right?

I had Sarah Silverman on it.

I had Steven Fry, Miriam Margolis, who's a
massive star in Britain, and that's partly

because I want to make it clear, a, these
are issues that I wanted to hear people

talk about the word just me and articulate
and interesting people, but also people

that are, that maybe you'd, you'd
have in your homes as it were, without

really thinking about their Jewishness.

I mean, even though Sarah and David are
probably people, I don't know if they do.

I mean, there was an
interesting conversation with

David about friends, right?

And one of the things we talked about,
uh, and this is a, I would say is an

expansion of the ideas in the book in
an interesting way, is like I said,

obviously friends has got quite a
lot of stick deserve stick stick.

Sorry.

It's an English word for, you
know, criticism for being not

diverse enough for being too white.

And of course that's true
and it's completely true.

And it, it's an issue with that show.

But I said to him, but if you were
to say maybe just even as a thought

experiment, maybe not even trying
to say this makes it okay, but to

say, well, actually there were two.

There was a minority in that show.

Two.

Two of the characters
were part for minority.

There were two Jews in
the three Jews, right?

Three.

No, I don't think so.

You think Rachel?

Well, because.

Rachel, Ross and Monica.

I think Rachel isn't Jewish, is she?

Rachel Green is not Jewish.

See, by the time you get that, I think
you'll start getting the race saying,

you see there were too many Jews.

What?

I think she might've been initially.

And then it seems to fade.

Mm

Uh I mean it is interesting.

American TV and all that stuff.

'cause of course American comedy in the
sort of like up to the nineties, I would

say the voice of it was incredibly Jewish.

Oh yeah.

At the same time, there was still
an antisemitism towards that.

So.

I haven't really finished the same thing
about friends, but I mean, in Seinfeld,

which is an incredibly Jewish show,
they still had to make George Greek.

Right.

I talk about that a lot.

Yeah.

George Costanza, he's Greek
and that's because the network

said, oh, Jerry is Jewish.

So that's enough Jews.

And it's interesting
that that's enough Jews.

Right.

With friends.

I was, I, I was talking to
David about how, how much.

Trouble he would get, I said,
I can say it, I'm gonna say it.

How much trouble he would get for
saying, well, there was a minority

in that show, you know, uh, I do it.

And, and then he said, yeah, people
would just say not a proper minority.

Right.

Having said that, Jonah.

Someone said to me the other day, and I
think this is true, they're a, a filmmaker

who said, oh, I was in a meeting the other
day and there was the, they were, we were

talking about the casting of a Jewish part
and people started saying, oh, we should

probably get a Jewish actor for this part.

And he said, that would never
have happened before your book.

And of course, I'm not very
bothered about authenticity casting.

What I was bothered about was the leaving
out of Jews from authenticity, casting.

Right.

And what that, what that says
about people's attitude to Jews.

I think that's an important
distinction and one of of great value.

Yeah.

So now I wanna shift to a different book.

Okay.

Your more recent book, I. My family.

Oh, cool.

Which is a, a book you wrote about
your upbringing, your family.

Yeah.

Uh, re really candid, totally open.

Yeah.

Funny, vulnerable.

Yeah.

Let's start with your dad.

Your father Colin was raised in Wales
where there were almost no Jews at all.

The story I'd always heard.

Was that his grandfather, my
great-grandfather, barred it.

The deal had come from Lithuania or
Lavia, fleeing from Russian pogrom.

So let's be clear, my mom's fleeing
from Nazis on my dad's side.

They're fleeing from Cossacks, and
yeah, he gets, he smuggles himself.

On a timber boat or something and
he wants to get to New York, but he

doesn't speak any English and the boat
stops for refueling at Swansea and he

just gets out and I assume 10 years
later he sees has got enough English

to say, where is the Statue of Liberty?

And someone says, well,
it's a long way over there.

And I think that's why a lot of Jews are
in Manchester or Swansea or Liverpool

or all these ports in Britain because
they were trying to get to America,

but they didn't know where America was.

That's hilarious.

And that's why my grand, my, my family
on that side are in, in Swansea.

And actually that side of
my family became very from.

Became massively
orthodox, set up Yeshivas.

Oh wow.

All over Britain.

And sometimes I bump into the Frommers
and there's normally 10 of them and

they don't really like me 'cause they
don't watch telly and I'm not orthodox.

So actually the young ones are very sweet.

But the older ones, they all hate me.

Was your father's experience
growing up of being like an extreme?

Isolated minority or he felt like, you
know, he had community and that wasn't

really part of what he imparted to you.

One of the things about the book is
I'm trying to make it clear to people

how mixed up a Jewish childhood is
in London in 1970, and so my mom

and her parents are really the only
side of my family who get away.

Who aren't murdered and they ar arrive,
they arrive in, they go to Cambridge.

Then my grandfather is, um,
interned on the Isle of Man.

I've written another whole novel about
this, which is about, yeah, the term of

Jewish German refugees or the Isle of Man.

It's a very, very screwed
up charter that my mom has.

But then we are having, say, Sader Knights
or whatever at our house, and they are

the sort of, they're reformed Jews.

They lead it.

Meanwhile, my dad, who is a very working
class Welsh guy, is sitting there saying,

saying he used to call it Ly Wally Bally.

And when's the fucking Olly Wally Bally
gonna finish so that we can eat right?

And generally he was like that.

We went, me and my brothers to a
very Orthodox Jewish primary school,

right, the

northwest under Jewish Day school.

We went there 'cause it was
the nearest school that Jewish

kids wouldn't get beaten up for
being Jewish in London in 1973.

And we were wearing couples and sit sit
and eating kosher and learning Hebrew.

Meanwhile, our dad is making us
bacon and eggs for breakfast.

Right.

So it's all screwed up essentially.

Very confusing.

Yeah.

But my dad, I think he was much
more Welsh than he was Jewish.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

But he was, was Jewish.

Um, I mean obviously he was Jewish,
but I mean, I. I wouldn't say

that was at the core of his being.

It was more at the core of
my mom's being, I think.

So let's talk about your mom.

As you mentioned, she and her parents
escaped Nazi Germany in August of 1939.

Like just, just slipping through.

Yeah.

Um, and I know your grandfather
was impacted on Crystal Knocked.

Yeah.

Can you tell me about that story?

As far as I can make out,
my grandfather was a.

They came from a beautiful place, but
it was beautiful then called Burg.

It's now called colliding grad.

It's not beautiful 'cause it was bombed
to fuck during the war and it's in Russia.

Uh, and he was arrested after Krisna
and along with a lot of Jewish men,

I think like over 80,000 Jewish
men were sent to concentration

camps before the war, like 1938.

And he was sent to Dachau.

And as far as I understand it,
my grandmother basically sold.

All they had left, which wasn't very
much by 1938, you know, obviously.

'cause it'd

already been taken by
the, it had already been

stolen.

It'd already been.

When I did, I did a show called,
who Do you Think You Are, which is

a ancestry show and I actually went
to Linden Grand, I saw the stumps

of my grandparents' brick factory.

They owned a brick factory.

Wow.

There, it was amazing actually.

Um, and I also met a woman.

A very sweet woman who said that
her dad, she cried as she told me.

Her dad, who was non-Jewish, had carried
on trading with my grandparents'.

Brick factory.

After that was illegal, uh, because
he liked my grandfather and wanted to

give him something, uh, but basically
they had nothing left and what they

had left, my grandfather sold it,
grandmother sold it in order to bribe.

The authorities to get my
grandfather out of dca.

Uh, and when he got out, they had
an incredibly small window of time

to try and get outta the country.

They were trying to get to New York
as well, but they didn't get there.

Um, and yeah, I mean the letters
are just so terrifying because they

essentially are letters from the
Jewish Refugee Committee in London

saying, yeah, if you can get your.

You know, visas and if you can go to
Berlin, these are Jews being asked,

'cause they lived in Burg a long way.

Then we, we will give
you entry to Britain.

And then they have a baby, which
is my mother, and they get another

letter saying, okay, we'll try
and get a card for your baby so

you can, it's just terrifying.

Right.

Wow.

I know it's so, I, I find it really
difficult at some level to imagine it.

Of course.

Uh, how, how much did your grandparents
speak to you about this stuff?

Well, I was young.

I think I tell a story in the book.

Uh, there was a show I. Uh, odd
in Britain called Dad's Army.

And it had a, a theme tune.

It was about the Home guard.

It was a sitcom about this sort of old man
who, who tried to defend, uh, England from

attack in the, in 1940s, a comedy show.

And it used to have a song that began, who
do you think you are kidding, Mr. Hitler?

And that was really my only my sense of
like the Nazis when I was really young.

I didn't really understand
them as a terrible force.

And then I spoke to my grandmother
one day and I said to her.

Oh, did you have any brothers and sisters?

And she said, oh, you'll have to ask
Mr. Hitler what happened to them.

And I remember thinking what that
guy they sing about on Dad's army.

And then later when I realized she meant
Hitler, and uh, that was one of the first

times that she spoke to me about it in
a way that meant my brothers are lost.

They are lost, right?

Because of Hitler.

And when I start to think
about that properly.

This woman who wasn't even that old
then she would've been in her sixties.

I am 61 now.

I mean, that's one of the things, right?

Like how old are you, Jonah?

I'm 38.

Okay, so you are still quite young,
but you'll still know what I'm talking

about when you are young, properly.

I'm speaking to my grandma when I'm
like nine, asking you that question.

Yeah, right.

The war.

This would've been in the
seventies or whatever the war

seems like years and years ago.

But now I realize that I was born 19 years
after the war ended, 19 years ago now.

I can remember the TV shows I was doing
in Britain like they were yesterday.

I mean, it really feels
like right no time at talk.

So my grandparents, I now understand
they were in this country and their

brothers and sisters had been murdered
yesterday as far as emotionally right.

They felt right.

Uh, and so obviously it was
really hard to talk about it

and they didn't talk about it.

My grandfather actually was in and out
of mental hospital with depression.

What I often think about that is I've
had depression, uh, in my time, but what

I always think, like, I always feel like
imposter syndrome with depression, right?

'cause like, what the fuck have
I got to be depressed about?

But meanwhile, my grandfather,
his whole family was murdered.

Right?

So, fair enough that he was depressed,

right?

The main thing in my family, the memoir.

Is it's really about my
mom and my mom, right?

And an affair that she had with a
golfing memorabilia as salesman, right?

Uh, and the way that she became obsessed
with golf memorabilia as a result

of this, had transformed our lives,
which had nothing to do with golf.

We were a soccer family.

Suddenly everything in the house
is a golfing memorabilia ornament.

She sets up a business called Golf Fi.

It's unbelievable.

And later on, I find.

Erotic poems, essentially about
golf memorabilia that she's

written, et cetera, et cetera.

That's also the name of the golf
memorabilia store of her lover, right?

It's the same name.

That's correct.

She said some business, bless you
for knowing that called Golf Fi.

The way she showed this guy that she was
in love with him was to set up a rival.

Golfing memorabilia company.

Right.

And but the reason I bring it up
now, it's all, the book is mainly

I hope, funny although, funny.

Sad, but funny.

Yeah.

But there's a bit in the book, which
is very typical of the way that I

think now and maybe didn't, when I was
younger, my mom in her subconscious

had notion of this other life.

I. That she would've had if
Hitler had never existed.

She was from a very wealthy
family, a society woman.

She'd have married some kind
of Austro-Hungarian Jewish

prince, and she didn't get that.

She got my dad, who was an unbelievably
working class, unbelievably sweary

Welsh bloke, and so this affair.

I think that was the nearest thing she
could get to this Austro-Hungarian prince.

So I think when she said that affair
meant that I was living a good life,

I think she meant her good life,
the one that was stolen from her.

I think that's, that's what she means.

I found it interesting.

I forget if this was in the book or if I
was reading something about the book, but

even just the notion of golf, uh, as being
this thing that, you know, Jews were not.

Always welcome at.

Yeah.

And like that being the thing that
she sort of became obsessed with.

No, I think the psychology
of That's really interesting.

I,

I think that's unquestionably part of it.

Jews were basically not allowed
into golf clubs in Britain until, I

don't know the, the nineties, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I think unquestionably,
my mom was possibly always.

In a very subconscious way trying to
protect yourself from the possibility

of more anti-Semitism, and one way
of doing that was to fall in love

with a man who felt very non-Jewish,
know so much so that he was part

of this very non-Jewish milieu.

Gulf.

Yeah.

Okay.

So moving back to the secret purposes.

Yeah.

2004 German refugees in Britain, very
much like, you know, Japanese people

in America were interned because the
government said, oh, they might be spies.

Yeah.

Clearly this was impactful on
you as you wrote a book about it.

Uh, how, how much of that book is.

Is is directly biographical of
your grandfather's experience.

How much of it was research?

How much of it came from him?

Right.

I'm just curious about it.

It's not that biographical.

It's inspired by my grandfather's
experience and by the fact that I

didn't really know until I discovered
that my grandfather had been interned

about this guy's secret history, secret
British history, uh, of the way they

treated Jews, Jewish refugees, so.

There's like, I don't know,
a hundred thousand Jewish

refugees in Britain in 1940.

And very similar in a way to sometimes
like migrant hysteria happens now,

the right wing tabloids are sort of
whipping up this storm about 'em.

And one reason they can do that is
the British government are suppressing

information about the Holocaust.

Mm-hmm.

And the reason for that are
very interesting in themselves

and they're quite anti-Semitic.

Um.

And so just let me, I'll come
back to your question, but

there's a very interesting thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Thing I discovered, which is in that book,
a Real Thing, which is in that book, which

is that a memo went out and the memo says,
and it's a real memo that, uh, atrocities

as put out by the Ministry of Information,
uh, they must only be described as

things that happen to what the memo
calls indisputably innocent people.

And then it goes on to
say, not violent criminals.

And not Jews.

Right.

That's a real memo from 1940 to
the Ministry of Information in

Britain, IE don't talk about Jews
and terrible stuff happening to them

because we are not sure they belong
in the category of the indisputably.

Innocent and British people only respond
if we could think that they are, which I

would say at some level sums up everything
we've been saying, by the way, about

Jews, 100% about Jews not counting.

There's a basic sense that when
terrible stuff happens to Jews.

They must be in some way responsible.

Responsible.

Right.

Maybe they deserve it.

They kind of deserve it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the interesting thing about it is that
the Isle of Man was somewhere where they

just basically Churchill in 1940 said.

Just arrest all these
Germans in Britain Right.

With no sense.

Like, well, obviously they can't
be Nazis 'cause they're Jewish.

Right?

But he, he just did that.

And then what the British did in a very
British way was be quite lazy about it.

So, so they put 'em in camps, but not
concentration camps, just literally.

Bed and breakfast hotels, that's
where my grandfather was behind.

Barbed wire on the Isle of Man, but a
big barbed wire, so the whole of one

city would've barbed wire and then
they'd put them in bed and breakfast.

And then the Jews, and this is the
really interesting thing, did a

very Jewish thing, which is in six
weeks, Douglas on the Isle of Man.

Is Vienna, right?

In six weeks there is lectures
and recital and art exhibitions.

There are six Nobel Prize winners in
Douglas on the Isle of Man in June, 1940.

Wow.

The abode quartet meat on the Isle
of man, Kurt Schwitters, the greatest

montage, uh, painter of that time.

It starts working with sort of
stuff with porridge and stuff

in, I mean, it's unbelievable.

The Jews just turn it into
this incredible cultural center

and actually my grandfather.

Told me, uh, that he liked it on the
a of man, which is kind of weird, huh?

Of course.

He was separated from my,
from my mom, his baby.

And I dunno if you would like it
to be separated from your baby

and sent to Not the best, no.

No, but he kind of liked it
'cause it was interesting.

I'm sure It was interesting anyway.

Right.

I thought that was a great setting.

For a novel.

So that's why Sure why I set it there.

Now I wanna talk about your,
I mean, you've been very busy.

I wanna talk about your 2023 book, the God
Desire, which I, I resonated a lot with.

I would call myself more an
agnostic than an atheist.

Uh, atheist is a, you know, I'm a little,
I'm a little more humble than you.

I think it's more
unknowable than conclusive.

I experienced that God desire, and
it's something I've actually spoken

about on this show for my audience.

Can you define the God
desire and have you.

Totally.

You know, have you made
up your mind giving up?

You know, there's never ending, gonna
be a connection to the divine period.

We talked about how atheism is
at the heart of my explanation

of anti-Jewish racism, right?

That it's not religion, right?

That was sort of the starting
point for that book, which is that

for me, Jewishness is definitely
not about a supernatural.

Hash she, it's not about that.

Even though it sort of contains that.

Ironically or indeed sometimes.

Not ironically.

'cause there's a section in the book where
I talk about how moved I can get listening

to Jewish songs and Jewish prayers and
Hebrew, but it's still nothing to do.

It's to do for me with
survival and tradition.

Mm-hmm.

And defiance that that stuff survives.

Not to do with the idea that God is
listening to any of that stuff, but.

But then I thought more about it
and I, and I thought like, I wanna

write an atheist book that is
different, I think from most atheist

books, because what it acknowledges
is how much I want God to exist.

Uh, and in fact, it's my desire,
it's my want that makes me know

he doesn't, in so far as I think.

Mm-hmm.

Well.

Everyone wants this thing.

Everyone is frightened of death.

Everyone is frightened of meaninglessness.

Everyone would like to see their
loved ones again, if they've gone.

Everyone would like to feel that
they have a purpose in life.

That justice will prove all the stuff that
we want that isn't real about the world.

We want that stuff.

And so we have an answer if we
want it, which is that God will

make that stuff happen, right?

Or in whatever mysterious way.

That God has a plan, and that plan
includes that we are being witnessed

and that there is a meaning, and we
are not just knocking about as atoms

for no particular reason and so.

The more I feel that desire for that
stuff to be true, the more I think

yeah, that's what leads to God.

That's why we project God into
the world because he answers all

those problems for us, right?

Uh, all those very, very
deep psychological problems.

And the difference is.

That I therefore don't dismiss religion.

I mean, I wouldn't dismiss it
anyway, and I think that's to do

with being part of a minority.

But I also, because I, I own the desire.

So when I think of the book, when I
say that Bertrand Russell says, after

I die my body and my ego shall rot.

And then he goes, but I scorn those.

Who would shiver at the
thought of oblivion?

What I think is, what do you mean scorn?

Right?

Why?

Why are you scorning
people who are frightened?

I don't, I don't believe You
are not frightened, Bertrand.

Right?

Right.

Everyone is frightened of death and
it's okay to be frightened of death.

It's okay to hope that there's
something magic that will mean that

there is something beyond death.

I'm gonna give a quick shout out to
my cousin Alexander, who, who sent me.

A little something about this once
I did my monologue about how I don't

believe in God, and, and he, he
introduced me to some thinking by

Heiddeger, the famous Nazi philosopher.

Yeah.

Um, uh, but you know, we're,
we're gonna separate the art

from the artist for a second.

Yeah.

I think if he was on Twitter now,
someone would say this you and have a

picture of him with a swastika old man.

And people wouldn't believe that

this idea that my cousin
sent me, which is.

The notion that there is not a God as
we, you know, picture this, you know,

man with the beard, whatever, but maybe.

To experience the divine requires
a certain level of attunement or

openness to it in order to receive it.

And by being closed to it and
saying it does not exist, you

are essentially closing the door
on being able to be open to it.

Should it exist.

I would say.

I'm pretty open to it in a way, in that
I, throughout the book saying, look,

I'd love to be able to find something
that makes me feel that this is true.

And the nearest I get to it is
quantum physics, by the way.

Uh, I, I, I know why I am fascinated by
quantum physics, and that's because what

I really want to believe in is magic.

That, by the way, is what
we all want to believe in.

When we believe in God, we
want to believe that there is

something beyond the material.

Yeah.

So in that sense, in terms of your Heger
point, I think I'm pretty open to it.

And if the door.

Was there with the key and I, that was it.

I would be rushing through it to meet God
and then apologizing to him about all the

stuff I said about how he doesn't exist.

Fair enough.

I'm open to it in a
way, is what I'm saying.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Okay, so, um, you mentioned earlier your
podcast that you did over this past year.

Yeah.

A Muslim and a Jew go there.

Yeah.

I think it's terrific and there's
a lot of great value in it.

I think listeners of this
show would really enjoy and

appreciate those conversations.

I thought it was really great.

It was also really difficult.

That's what I mean.

I wanted to ask about that.

Well, I'm probably the most well-known
or, you know, well known for putting

his Jewishness in the foreground
person in Britain, public Jew

extraordinaire, as I said,
in the public extraordinaire.

And so,

but I'm an odd choice for it because I'm
not, as you know, I'm, I'm a non Zionist.

And what was problematic for me about
it, and difficult, even though I think

there was some very good episodes of that,
was that Sida is very pro-Palestinian.

And she therefore was one side
of the, and I wasn't really this

other side of the argument, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, so a lot of the time I'd be
saying, well, I think what most

Jews might be saying is rather than
necessarily just speaking for me.

However, it was still a really
interesting show, a very interesting

thing psychologically, which is.

You know, whatever my position
on Israel Palestine, I would

often not agree with her.

And then there'd be an interesting
thing, which I think people liked,

which was, okay, we are just gonna sit
with the discomfort of disagreement.

And that is something which I think
people find really, really hard now.

Absolutely.

Because

of social media.

Social media, which has created
this terrible, terrible thing,

which is everyone is going to argue.

Which is fine, but not this in public.

Everyone is gonna argue with a spotlight
on them and lots of people watching,

which means they can't argue in any
kind of constructive way because it

feels like a humiliation if you lose.

It's all about winning and losing.

Mm-hmm.

And that's why you've got this
unbelievably toxic thing whereby

it's just people shouting at
each other because they feel.

You know, triumphant or humiliated
or whatever that stuff is.

Instead of that, we managed, 'cause
it was a public place, a podcast like

sometimes we would really disagree.

We couldn't find a place of resolution
and we would just sit with, as it were,

listening to each other's difference.

And that was a good thing.

And I think that podcast was really
good from that point of view.

And I certainly heard lots of stuff from
SIDA that was outside my normal kind of

comfort zone and was really interesting.

I haven't done it again, I haven't
done a second series of it.

And that's partly to do with the Middle
East, which is like, I don't, I wanted

to do a show, which the show sometimes
was about, the general stuff, the general

issues affecting these two communities,
mainly in Britain, globally a bit.

Mm-hmm.

But mainly, but every week it was
just because of when it started

relentlessly about Israel Palestine.

Yeah.

And after a while I thought, hang on
a, I don't want to talk about this

every week 'cause it's very, very grim.

But also I've sort of built my whole.

You know, non Zionist castle on, I am
not someone who feels that the way I

talk about Jewishness and antisemitism
is gonna be all about Israel and

all about the Middle East, right?

And here I am doing that.

And so after a while I
found that quite difficult.

I. We, uh, we might go back to it.

I would prefer to go back to it
when the terrible conflict is over.

Sure.

And who, who knows when that will be
so that we can feel that isn't what

we have to talk about every week.

I'm curious as to what kind
of relationship the two of

you had prior to the show.

Were you already to close?

Was this like, we're gonna jump in and
just see how it goes with this person?

I don't know that, well,
what, what was the vibe?

I did a film, which I would.

Re recommend you watch and
your viewers watch if you can.

Uh, it's called the Infidel.

That's was gonna be my next question.

So in 2010, I wrote a film called
The Infidel with a brilliant British,

uh, Iranian comic called Ahmed ly.

And it's about a Muslim who discovers that
he was biologically born Jewish, and he

has a kind of comedy nervous breakdown.

And when that film came out in Britain.

The, um, producer who's a guy called
Arvid David thought it might be a good

thing in terms of the Muslim audience
for that film to go and speak to and get

her to say a nice thing about the film.

So we went and saw her at the House
of Lords, uh, which she was in.

She's a Baroness.

Just for the folks who don't know,
she's Britain's first Muslim cabinet.

Yeah.

Member, like major politician.

Very, very well known.

Yeah.

She's first

woman Muslim to be a
member of the cabinet.

She's an incredible voice
for Muslims in Britain.

Astonishing woman in loads of ways.

Uh, anyway, I'd never met her before this
time and we went and saw her and all she

talked about was another film called For
Lions, which I dunno if you know, but a

very funny, it's a very funny film about,
it's a satire written by the guy who

wrote succession Jesse Armstrong about.

Shit terrorists about very,
very bad sort of, uh, sort of

jihadi terrorists in Britain.

It's a hilarious film, but it was
annoying to go and see Sida and all

she did was say, uh, yeah, I know
you've done this film, but there's

this other really funny film.

I did a show which was about comedians
mentoring people who weren't comedians.

It was like a TV show for charities for
standup to cancer in Britain, and so.

I was mentoring a priest and another
comedian was mentoring Sa de Varsi.

And as soon as I saw her start to do
standup, I thought she's gonna win.

Because even though she's not a
comedian, she's so got a voice,

she's so got something to say and
she's brilliant at delivering it.

And she did win.

And I think we bonded a bit when I,
'cause I was like very positive about her.

But no, we didn't know each
other well, but we haven't met.

So you've got the infidel, you've
got this podcast, clearly you have

some sort of connection to the
Muslim, Jewish, you know, connection.

Uh, what, what is there in that for you?

Why is that important to explore?

I am interested in how one's identity.

As a Jew relates to other minorities.

So in a completely different way.

My wife is Catholic.

My best friend or the person
I've done most comedy with is a

devout Catholic Frank Skinner.

Um, and, uh, one thing I've noticed
about Catholics is that in Britain they

were for years a persecuted minority.

There is something about that identity
that makes them marked in some way,

and that's the truth of all minorities.

And it's not true.

Of the majority, uh, and I'm sorry,
white British people watching this, there

might not be that many, but if you're
just white and Christian and Anglican

and British and you go to the Church of
England, you, you might be a wonderful

person in many ways, but somewhere around
that culture doesn't mark you, right.

You're not freighted with it in the way
we are freighted with Jewishness, and

indeed Catholics are, and Muslims are,
and whoever, you know, being a minority,

it touches you very deeply, right?

And.

That could be in loads of positive
ways, including comically, right?

Including musically, including whatever.

But also you have to think about it in
terms of racism that you're gonna face.

And so for me, Muslims are as
much as that as anything else.

Now, I know there's meant to be this
big polarity between Muslims and Jews.

I don't recognize that.

And I also think.

And in the infidel, I try and
theologically draw attention to this.

We are the same, utterly
the same religion.

I didn't really notice
that, but I didn't know.

The Koran is basically, basically the
same stories as in the Old Testament.

David, I'm gonna leave it there.

Okay.

That's a great, great way to finish.

Thank you so much for the time and for
getting into all the stuff with me.

You're doing amazing work and
we'll look forward to seeing

what you come up with next.

Thank you so much, Jonah.

It's been a pleasure.

It's been a long pleasure.

But definitely a pleasure.

I'll take it.

Thanks for the time.

Thank you very

much.

Cheers.

Thank you to David Bede.

Enjoy the being Jewish book sales bump.

Send me some crumpets.

Our season is winding down, but
I've got an exciting announcement

about a new project coming up for
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That's it for me folks.

See y'all back here on the next
jolly good episode of being

Jewish with me, Jonah Platt.