Being Jewish with Jonah Platt

BJJP_32_Broadway’s Greatest Living Jewish Composer_ Musical Theater Icon Jason Robert Brown Sings the TRUTH
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Jason Robert Brown: [00:00:00] TE saying on the

Jonah Platt: other hand, that to

Jason Robert Brown: me is

Jonah Platt: the

Jason Robert Brown: most

Jonah Platt: Jewish value in the world with Ariana specifically. 'cause I know the people want to know, like the people want to know. Your shows generally have not been hugely commercially successful. We can look up and

Jason Robert Brown: see ourselves 'cause here's a Jewish man being persecuted because of who he is.

Jonah Platt: One of my life's great passions and pursuits has been musical theater as a performer, a creator, and an audience member. And so it is with great excitement that today I welcome one of the medium's greatest living composers to the podcast. He is without question, the most prolific contemporary composer of Jewish stories and music for the stage, including two fully Jewish musicals, neither of which is Fiddler on the Roof.

He also wrote the musical, the Bridges of Madison County, which he called the most go of musical he could possibly write. He's got two daughters, three Tony Awards. Eight Broadway shows and he discovered Ariana Grande. Ladies and gentlemen, please give a round of applause to the UG Maestro, Mr. Jason Robert Brown,

Jason Robert Brown: the [00:01:00] UG and maestro.

I have to get t-shirts with that.

Jonah Platt: There you go. You can keep it. I think this is probably the, the first conversation I've had with somebody I've auditioned for. That was a long time ago. It was a really long time ago.

Jason Robert Brown: I don't think that production ever even happened. It did not. Yeah. No. Yeah, you auditioned for, we were working on a production of the last five years to do out in Los Angeles.

Uh, and then ultimately we ended up not doing it, but yeah.

Jonah Platt: But now here it is on Broadway. Indeed it is. Finally, after all these years, why now?

Jason Robert Brown: This was really the passion of, uh, Greg Noble, who, uh, was our producer, Greg, uh, had also been the producer of the revival of Parade, uh, after we did it at City Center, um, with someone, you know,

Jonah Platt: who could

Jason Robert Brown: that be?

Uh, uh, another OG Maestro. That's right. Um, and after. He did parade. Greg said, I, I really wanna bring the last five years to Broadway. And I said, uh, you know, I support it and I'm thrilled for it and, you know, tell me what you need. But I didn't, I didn't want to get in the way of it. I've directed the show already.

Mm-hmm. And I've, you know, I, [00:02:00] it's been in my life for 25 years. Yeah. And I didn't feel like I had anything. Knew that I wanted to say about it. So I really said, let this be someone else's vision for it.

Jonah Platt: The lead, uh, playing Jamie Wallerstein. Nick Jonas. It's a role That's famous Jew. Famous Jew, right? Yes. So this is a very Jewish role, you know, based on you singing several distinctly Jewish songs, Shik a Goddess Shamu song.

Have you heard the criticism about having a non-Jew in this very Jewish role? Yeah. And how do you, uh, you seem pretty nonplused. Tell me more.

Jason Robert Brown: Nick Jonas wanted to play the part and Nick Jonas is an international pop star who's gonna sell a lot of tickets. And you're talking about a show that has to sell a lot of tickets to be on Broadway.

And the only way you get a theater is if you have a big star and the number of big stars who happen to be the right age and Jewish who can really sing this would be, uh, vanishingly small. And I believe we did actually reach out [00:03:00] to. As many of those people as we could, and they were not available, um, or not interested in doing it for whatever reason.

And so I, I, uh, I liked Nick and I trusted him to respect it and to do it well. And I said I wanna be clear to everybody that I. The part is a Jewish character and that we're not going to not have it be a Jewish character, and that we're not gonna make fun of it being a Jewish character. And that is what it is.

And other than that, there've been going and playing Jews for, you know, forever. I can get crazy about it or I cannot, I, I did not think there was anything inherently disrespectful. About Nick doing it. Uh, and I thought the only issue is, is he gonna be good or is he not gonna be good? And I think he actually does a beautiful job with it.

And so the rest of it is entirely academic. It's not, you know, it's not like he's. Playing Fagan and you know, we've got him, you know, in PEIs and wandering around on stage, right? He's just a [00:04:00] contemporary guy who is incidentally Jewish and we haven't erased any of that by having it played by somebody who isn't.

Jonah Platt: What do you think about the sort of double standard nature of that? Like for example, if, if Jamie was someone in a wheelchair, could Nick Jonas play it?

Jason Robert Brown: Well, I, I don't think being Jewish is a disability.

Jonah Platt: No, it's not. But it's, you know, it's a, it's a difference, right? In some way.

Jason Robert Brown: Sure. I mean, I don't know if Nick should play someone in a wheelchair,

Jonah Platt: so there's, it's, it's a little different.

There's something different about it.

Jason Robert Brown: I think. If the question is sort of what is representation in this particular arena? Where is it important for representation to. Be exact. Mm-hmm. And I think in Parade for example, it was very important that that role be played by a Jewish man. Uh, and it was as it happened and still is on the road.

Um, and I just didn't feel that in this case. And I, you know. [00:05:00] You know what I really don't like is when you see people playing Jewish characters who are clearly not Jewish, and what it turns into is some sort of Jewishy shtick.

Jonah Platt: That's always the risk,

Jason Robert Brown: and there is none of that, and I've seen that from, I.

Extraordinarily gifted actors. I mean, you know, I, I've seen it from John Tartu and I've seen it from, uh, uh, the Girl in Mrs. Maisel. I've, you know, I like really wonderful actors who sort of fall into this kind of brooklyny thing that I think I doesn't feel real to me. Yeah. And, uh, so I, Nick wasn't. Going to assay, any of that.

Yeah. Uh, and I, I wasn't remotely concerned on that front.

Jonah Platt: Thank you for sharing that. I know a lot of people were curious to hear your way in. The more famous song probably from the show is Shiksa Goddess, which has been performed by a million people, myself included, for many, many years. But Schul song is.

More Jewish, almost, you know, it's about this and Kvi and [00:06:00] has this sort of old country European musical feel. What, what's the story behind that song

Jason Robert Brown: when you get to the Schmuel song in the show? Uh. What I needed to do was to demonstrate a, a bunch of things. I wanted to talk about both who Jamie was as a writer and who Jamie was culturally, uh, and so the Schmuel song is an opportunity for him to, I.

Sort of express both of those things. This is, I, this is how I write, and this is culturally where I came from. I think it's, it's, I mean, it's obviously Jewish because, uh, we think of all those Isaac Bea singer stories in that particular way in the Empo talk and all, you know. Mm-hmm. But I, I think again, it, it's not.

There's nothing religious at all about the song. There's just this culture of what it was to be in the STLs, you know, in Russia, in the, the pale of settlement. And uh, and that's

Jonah Platt: just as Jewish as the religious piece to me. I mean, I think those are well [00:07:00] precisely, but it's not,

Jason Robert Brown: what it's not about is any kind of worship.

Oh, sure. You know, it's, it's just a, a cultural history there. And so I think Jamie would've grown up hearing those stories and reading those stories. Mm-hmm. And loving those stories and finding that to be a sort of comforting world of fable. Yeah. Uh, whereas I. Kathy, who he is singing it to wouldn't necessarily have the same context for it.

Right. And I, I thought it was important, uh, to put the two of them in that situation where he's got this story that feels like, this is just my culture. These are my, these are my people. This is how we tell this story. And that she would find this all, you know, very exotic and, and, you know, strange. That was the core of the Schmuel song.

You know, it was just everything. We're going to talk about in terms of Jewish musical theater is gonna come down to Fiddler on the roof at some point. And you know, uh, it's the granddaddy. I remember saying to Sheldon, I. After, uh, [00:08:00] the show opened, I said, oh, you have to see it. There's a song that you're gonna love.

And he said, why? Because it's Jewish. And I said, no, 'cause it's a sweet story. And that's, mm-hmm. You know, that's what Sheldon did so beautifully, you know, better than anybody is. He just told these, these sweet stories from the heart about, you know, life. And it turned out he was Jewish. And so they. They spoke in a very specifically Jewish cultural way.

Jonah Platt: Yeah. I, I love what you point out about the way that song is Hits ka and, and that she doesn't really have a frame of reference for, that's not something that I've thought about watching it before. Um, I think that's a really interesting layer. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about parade. Which, um, you're currently represented by on a big national tour.

Uh, it is, for those of you who haven't seen it, it is about the 1913 trial and lynching of Leo Frank in Atlanta, which is completely true story. It debuted back in 98, your first Broadway show. You're only 26 years old. I

Jason Robert Brown: was 28, but, oh, [00:09:00] sorry. You started, maybe you started writing it when it was 26 was what I read.

I think I started writing it when I was 24. Well, there you go. So I was,

Jonah Platt: I hit the mean. Um, so you're, you're brought in by legendary producer, director, Hal Prince, who also happens to be Jewish. Take us back, if you will. What was the process of being invited to write a Broadway show with Hal Prince? It was

Jason Robert Brown: really wild.

Jonah Platt: That's gotta be crazy.

Jason Robert Brown: I mean, it was wild in that it was exactly. Sort of the pinnacle of what you want to do. I mean, if you're my age mm-hmm. And you grow up loving musical theater, then ultimately you're like, I want to end up. Writing a show for Hal Prince, that would be like, that's the apex, right?

That's the whole thing. And then I was 24 years old and I, you know, had a meeting and got the call and suddenly I was writing a show for Hal Prince and, uh, and not just sort of writing a show for Hal Prince, but also writing a show that dovetailed exactly with all the things I was interested in. I wanted to write something [00:10:00] that was about justice and I, you know, about that sense of the sense of being judged.

Because your personality is a certain thing, because the, you know, it's, it's not just that Leo is Jewish in the way we tell the story. Right. And I think what was true though, who knows? But I, it's not just that Leo is Jewish, he's an alienating guy, it's just that he's prickly and he's cold, and I think he's a loner and, you know, not a person who loves hanging out with other people.

You know, I, I think there's something that was, uh, just distancing about Leo. Yeah. And, uh, I. That really resonated with me through In your own personal experience. Yeah, no. 'cause I don't like people, I mean, who's worse than people? Um, cats maybe. Cats, right? All of those things, uh, were sort of on the table at the same time as well as sort of this great.

Panorama of, you know, what the south was like, and, and it was just, it was everything I wanted to write. And it happened to be that Hal [00:11:00] Prince was gonna be directing it, and Alfred, Yuri was gonna be writing the, the book. And I, it was just it, it was. It would've been overwhelming, but a, I think my ego was big enough to think, well, you totally deserve this.

Uh, and B there was just so much work to do that I didn't have time to sort of get, uh, you know, go running around and, you know, uh, Oodle doing. But, you know, I, I just had to get the show written and Hal was a real task master about, you know, we had weekly meetings in his office and he wanted to see what it was, and he wanted to keep it moving.

And he, you know, uh, Hal was a, a freight train. It was just, there was always motion.

Jonah Platt: That's so critical to getting these things done. It's, you know, stalling out is like the, the greatest enemy. Oh, absolutely. And then you mentioned you got to work with Alfred Yuri, who's like the great American Jewish writer about the South Tony, Oscar Pulitzer.

What was that collaboration like as, as the composer lyricist with him, as the book writer, which is, you know, a critical collaboration to making the show work

Jason Robert Brown: is he was just such a mensch that it, it, [00:12:00] it's. It's been very hard for me in the, uh, you know, 20, 30 years since then to replicate that experience in any way.

Sure. He was. Uh, just the most generous collaborator who Alfred wanted very much to tell this story, which was part of his own family history. Right. You know, his, his Uncle Sig actually owned the, the pencil factory that Leo worked in. Oh,

Jonah Platt: wow. I didn't realize it was that person. Oh, yeah.

Jason Robert Brown: And, uh, and Alfred had met Lucille, uh, when, when he was a child.

He didn't know who she was, but, uh Wow. So it was very important for Alfred to get the story told. And so he just, he just trusted me to help him tell the story.

Jonah Platt: How did the revival come about? Where did that come out of?

Jason Robert Brown: You know, with Parade, we did the show in 98, 99. Um, I think people went to Lincoln Center or didn't go to Lincoln Center, but they were like, Ugh, it's so sad, and why would you make a musical about some story like this?

Yeah. There was a [00:13:00] sense also that I have now that it was easy to look. It was during the Clinton administration. It was easy to look at the Leo Frank cases, like a thing that happened once and why do we have to talk about this,

Jonah Platt: right? I mean, it was the golden age of American jewelry. Yeah,

Jason Robert Brown: maybe, you know, in the nineties it was pretty good.

Um, and so then 10 years later, uh, we did a, a revision of the show and we did it at the Don Mar in London.

Jonah Platt: For what purpose?

Jason Robert Brown: Our dance captain on the show at Lincoln Center was a guy named Rob Ashford, and then Rob heard of him. Uh, Rob got to be a very, uh, well esteemed choreographer in London. Uh, he had done several, uh, shows in London and so at the Don Marr where he had done some work, they said, would you like to direct?

And he said, I do, but the show I wanna direct is a show called Parade. Wow. And Parade was, you know, the original production was, uh, 36 people in the cast or something like that. And the Don MAs. Uh, exactly as big as this studio if Right. You know, if we could show the camera. Um, but, [00:14:00] uh, but Rob had an idea for how to do it and it was a great place to do it.

And so we did it there and we made a lot of revisions to the show. I'd say we, we kind of upended about 25% of the show, and I think, I'll be careful about saying this, but, uh, London. England in general doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to, uh, Jewish relations. Yeah. And there was something about the perspective of the piece that felt like it was important to say it there.

Mm-hmm. And that felt different than when we did it in New York to New Yorkers.

Jonah Platt: That makes sense.

Jason Robert Brown: And so then, you know, years past and that version of the show was the one that went out and then City Center called and said they were very interested in, uh, in doing the show for a week's run. And they said, Michael Arden is very interested in directing it.

And then, uh, plat, uh, is very interested in being in it and, uh, how does all that sound? And I said, well, why would I say [00:15:00] no to that? That sounds great. I said, I just, I want to conduct it. 'cause you know, I love the piece and I, I wanna make sure it's the full orchestration and that, you know, we take care of it that way.

Mm-hmm. And. I thought, you know, we'll do the show at City Center, but we're not gonna transfer or do anything like that because people are not gonna wanna pay to see a show about a lynching. That's not sort of how this works. You know, and I, you know, Benji's great and I, of course, people wanna see him, but they wanna see him do something that is life affirming and wonderful and not, uh, you know, sad and tragic.

But I think the minute we started. The minute the drums started at the top of the show, at the first performance at City Center, I was like, oh, times are different now. Mm. I've only ever had shows be unsuccessful on the commercial level. I, I mean, I, I love the work that I've done, so, you know, I don't try to think of it in those terms, but when I enter the commercial arena, it's generally like, that was, that was a nice try.

And off we go again. Yeah. Um, but. What the [00:16:00] commercial arena does other than worry about whether you pay your money back, is it says this is a bigger stage. Uh, you know, if you are going to enter the commercial arena, it's because you're saying I have something that needs to be on a large stage. And what Greg Noble, the producer, um.

Saul was, there was a real hunger to put this story on a larger stage, and the context was very different than it was in 1998. The context was, you know, uh, we're in a time where the government, uh, you know, is. Being run by white supremacists. And you know, in 2023, that was not literally the case because you know, Biden was in office.

Mm-hmm. But what was all around us was the residue of, uh, the four years of absolutely toxic antisemitism. Uh, and what was. You know, coming up though we didn't know it was around the corner at the time, was gonna be where we are now.

Jonah Platt: I want to ask you about that. Has, uh, have [00:17:00] you, well, in terms of the show, like has, have you seen the reception to the show changed at all since October 7th?

Jason Robert Brown: I think what already had happened was that. Jewish audiences and Jewish audiences were always gonna be a big part of who came to see this particular show. But Jewish audiences really wanted to see a story that told about what it is to be Jewish in America. Mm-hmm. And how the Jew will always be the outsider.

But I think it was so natural, uh, and easy to feel if you were a Jewish person, to feel victimized, to feel targeted. Uh. After October 7th that, uh, you know, what we always say about theater or even movies is what you want in the audience is to look up and see yourself. Yeah. You know, uh, and I think it would've just been so, so clear and so obvious that like we can look up and see ourselves.

'cause here's a Jewish man being persecuted because of who he is.

Jonah Platt: [00:18:00] We've had a last five years movie. We've had a 13 movie. Is there gonna be a parade movie?

Jason Robert Brown: Well, we'd have to ask your dad. I mean, I feel like there should

Jonah Platt: be, I feel like it would work great as a

Jason Robert Brown: movie. I would love there to be a movie. There have been, uh, there have been sort of.

Faints in that direction, but it all comes down to, you know, I, who's going to star in it? And so I haven't, right. I, you know, no one's come to me lately and said, I wanna option the movie. And I'm not the kind of handler who goes out there and is like, we're gonna make a parade movie and let's do it, and let's raise the, you know, $65 million it would take to make a small version of it.

Right. And, you know, uh, I, uh. I would, I would've loved to, to see it. And I still would love to see it. And I, it, it might happen.

Jonah Platt: Yeah. I know some guys, I'm, I'll make some calls Yeah. To make some calls. 'cause it would be nice. We can get Andrew Resnick to, to play on the soundtrack.

Jason Robert Brown: Shout out to Andrew. That's the most inside moment we'll have on this podcast.

A shout out to Andrew Resnick.

Jonah Platt: Oh, yeah. Well, you know enough people who know me personally also listen to this show. So there's like, you know, there's gonna be 50 people who really enjoy that shadow. [00:19:00] Um. So I just mentioned 13 the musical, which turned into a movie. This you stage Musical 2008. Movie 2022.

This is really one of the great tributes to authentic Jewish joy in the contemporary entertainment canon. Are, are you aware of that?

Jason Robert Brown: I like that description of it.

Jonah Platt: It really is. I mean, it, it's a very unique property and it's the, it's the kind of story that I talk a lot about on this show and in my speaking engagements of the kind of stories I want.

To see being told that our contemporary Jewish stories, there's no Jews dying. It's not about the Holocaust. It's people celebrating and being happy that they're being Jewish and have it has meaning for them in their lives. Well,

Jason Robert Brown: and I'll get back to an earlier point here, which is that with Netflix I was, I absolutely insistent to the point of I would've scuttled the movie that all of the Jewish characters be played by Jewish actors.

And I think the reason why that matters. There and doesn't matter so much when it's Nick doing it on Broadway [00:20:00] is what we were talking about was, you know, with movies you're talking about a situation where it is a story about a Jewish kid and a Jewish family and their Jewishness is absolutely, uh, essential to the storytelling.

And you talk about a large stage, we're talking about, this is the representation of this show that most people are going to know. Right? You know, this is how this is going to be. As opposed to Nick playing the show for 14 weeks, right? Where what I think is I get to see some great pop star, you know, bring this role to life for 14 weeks.

Who's being harmed by that? Right. I think had, uh, had the movie of 13 been a, a bunch of, you know, non-Jewish people playing those roles that would've been sort of me rubber stamping this kind of erasure of Jewish actors, uh, and, and what that culturally means to the character in a way that I just felt it would not have been at [00:21:00] all appropriate to what I had written.

Jonah Platt: I, I think that's a super clear distinction. Do you think you could get. 13 made today on stage.

Jason Robert Brown: I'm amazed that we did it then. That was another show that I never thought was supposed to be a Broadway musical. I mean, it's literally, it's 13, 13 year olds running around on stage Uhhuh, uh, and, and in the pit.

Yeah. I mean, it was all bananas. Like there's a lot of concept around that. Yeah. But it's not in any way an experimental show. It is the most sort of like flat out musical comedy I've ever written. Totally.

Jonah Platt: The jock and the cheerleader. So then

Jason Robert Brown: Bob Boyette said, no, it should, uh, we, I want to take it to Broadway, which I think was, I mean, I'll.

I'll, let's say it's about the strength of the material. Let's say it's about, you know, the, that the music was very powerful and, but I think it was also that when you talk about Broadway musicals, you are still talking about a Jewish audience. You are still talking about, you know, there is, it is a Jewish art form.

It is a, a thing that, that Jews sort of created and that Jews have been very instrumental in [00:22:00] developing. I think less so now, but you know. Oh, well, uh, you know, we get whitewashed out of everything, but, um, do I think that 13 could get done now? I don't know why it was done in 2008. It was, uh, it was, uh, you know,

Jonah Platt: crazy and miraculous.

Sounds like it's been a, a commercial success for you and, and it's many iterations now.

Jason Robert Brown: I mean, I, I don't know that any of the commercial versions of it ever made any money for anybody, and certainly I don't think the movie did, but,

Jonah Platt: uh,

Jason Robert Brown: in terms of me personally, sure. Yeah. Oh, it's been great. It performed

Jonah Platt: all over the place, right?

Yeah,

Jason Robert Brown: no, I, it, it's. It's been successful. Yeah. Uh, and it certainly has been what I wanted it to be. I wanted to write a show that. Teenagers could do that, didn't require them to be grownups. Um mm-hmm. And I just felt like the material that was out there at the time, if you were going to be a teenager, playing a teenager, it was going to be tragic.

It was gonna be like horrible, or it was gonna be like really, uh, like. Stupid. [00:23:00] Uh, and I and 13 is pretty stupid, but it's, I, it's, it's stupid in a way that felt very honest to me. It felt very genuine and it wasn't a story I had seen told

Jonah Platt: of your own bar mitzvah, you said it wasn't, I've read you said it wasn't particularly traumatic, but also that you had a hard time even finding 10 kids to show up to it.

So, which is the. True emotional truth.

Jason Robert Brown: My Bar Mitzvah wasn't really about me. I mean, uh, as far as everyone that I grew up with and, and went to school with and went to Hebrew school with him for that, the Bar Mitzvah was really your parents saying, look what we did. We got him all the way here. Now he's a man.

Um, and that was the context for it. So this thing now where a bar mitzvah is basically your wedding, that was not it. It wasn't about me so much. I had to learn my thorough portion. Right. We'll, we'll, we'll do all of this. You know, my grandfather was, was, uh, Orthodox. Mm-hmm. Uh, my dad's been gone for a while, but, um, but my mom is not particularly observant.

Other than [00:24:00] that the holidays are the holidays and we have to believe in the holidays. And that's, you know, that those traditions are the things that, that, uh, that, that matter. Um. But, uh, it was very important to my grandfather that we do it correctly. And so therefore, it was important to my mother that we do it correctly for him.

So, uh, that was my bar mitzvah. And so the, I mean, the trauma was just, you know, uh, learning how to, how to do it. Uh, but the, the reason I had trouble finding friends, uh. 'cause I didn't have many, but the reason I didn't have, I, I, I skipped a grade. Uh, I had, uh, I had been moved from the middle of third grade into the middle of, uh, fourth grade smarty pants, I guess.

I mean, I certainly don't recommend it. It was not, it's gotta be hard. It was hard on me. My mother fought against it like crazy. But ultimately the school, uh, it was a public school and I think they just sort of felt like they didn't have the resources. To deal with me. Yep. Um, 'cause I was clearly bored [00:25:00] intellectually, and they could sense that, I mean, I knew that, but I thought everybody was, I can relate.

Jonah Platt: We've spoken a lot about this on the show and I have a DHD and Yeah. Had gotten into a lot of trouble in elementary school and so

Jason Robert Brown: I, I think they felt like the only thing they could do was to move me up to where I would be more intellectually challenged. Mm-hmm. Um, but the social, uh, effect of that. I'm still carrying.

I mean, you know, it, it, it was, it was really intense and the what was. Made really clear was if you're a smart kid, then you must think you're better than all of us. Mm-hmm. And if you think you're better than all of us, then we don't wanna have anything to do with you. Mm-hmm. And so I, you know, eventually my way in was the music.

Uh, you know, that was the thing that eventually brought me into the world again. But for a number of years I just was kind of. Looking at everything from the outside and just thinking like, well, I guess I don't get to be part of this 'cause I'm smart. You know, I guess because I, [00:26:00] I, you know, it must be true.

I must be better than all of you. So I, you know, okay, that's the trauma of my youth, my bar mitzvah, whatever. By then, that was a long time I.

Jonah Platt: Right. Yeah. As part of 13, you discovered some great talent, like you mentioned, uh, Liz Gilleys, who I star opposite in a movie called Spread, which you can find on Tubi about a a porn magazine.

It's very funny. And of course, Oscar nominee Ariana Grande Ariano with Ariana specifically. 'cause I know the people want to know, like the people want to know. Could, could you, could you see. You know, star power in her.

Jason Robert Brown: It's hard for me to take any credit for discovering Ariana because Ariana was going to get there.

You know, someone was going to find her. You know, it happened that she walked into my room and my room was the one that had a, you know, a Broadway production coming and there was a producer who was paying for people to show up and do things, and so therefore we, you know, we were in the right place at the right time.

Ari was just an astonishingly gifted singer and just this [00:27:00] really wonderful personality. Like she just, she sang maybe four notes and we were like, great, fine. You're looking for talented 13 year olds. They're like, oh my God, that's, that's what you want. I would say there were very few of those kids who made that kind of impression that quickly.

Jonah Platt: You mentioned this earlier, but you know, your shows generally have not been hugely commercially successful and they've debuted on Broadway, but the music has been fantastic. What can you share about like that aspect of your career journey of, of creating great music for projects that maybe aren't received the way you'd hoped and how you keep just pushing forward?

Jason Robert Brown: It was really hard for a long time. I have to imagine. And it's not now. Hmm. It's complicated now. Uh, because in order to get any new work done, uh, you need money. Uh, and people get confused about how to invest in something that isn't necessarily gonna pay them [00:28:00] back. Uh, you know, I think you have to invest in art.

For the, the good of the art if you're just investing in the art so that you can get your money back, that's I, you know, fine. Great. But I, I don't, I don't really know how to talk to those people. Hmm. You invest in the art because you believe in the art. Um, uh, but the people who fund the art sometimes want to see what's gonna come out on the other end of it.

So that's, that's the part that's complicated about it. Um, I think. I never thought I was writing, um, forbidding or very difficult work. You know, I thought I was writing stuff that was kind of straight down the middle, uh, like on a musical level. I didn't think I was writing like I 12 tone, you know, free jazz craziness.

Right. It all sounded like pop music to me. I mean, it sounded like the stuff I grew up listening to, which may have been like. [00:29:00] 12 millimeters to the left of center, but was not kind of like. You know, thrash metal. What did you grow

Jonah Platt: up listening to?

Jason Robert Brown: You

Jonah Platt: know, Billy

Jason Robert Brown: Joel. I mean, you know, Billy Joel and Steven Sondheim, and Joni Mitchell and Stevie Wonder and Paul Simon, uh, you know, Carol King.

Great. I grew up listening to singer songwriters, uh, and wanting to be a singer songwriter. And much of what I was doing musically really did come from that tradition of like, this is what seventies singer songwriters did and wrote, and, you know, that's what I thought I was gonna be, you know. So, uh, it, it was hard for me to be writing stuff that felt to me very kind of accessible and be told that this was so uncommercial and that, you know, people weren't gonna want to buy this.

Mm-hmm. So I, I spent a lot of time thinking, alright, I've gotta keep tacking more towards the center. I've gotta be more commercial. I've got, you know, I'll [00:30:00] do this thing for kids or I'll do the, the bridges of Madison County, or I'll do honeymoon in Vegas. I'll do big musical comedies. Um, and I love those projects and I love having done them.

But having done them and having them all sort of end up in the same exact boat as the rest of my work, I think, oh, alright, I got it Now. You know, if, if my work were not. Responded to it all. You know, if I wasn't the kind of person who would be a guest on a podcast, you know, if I, if I just sort of labored in obscurity, that would be one thing.

Yeah. But I don't, the work gets out there and has a really, uh, fervent, uh, and devoted audience, uh, people who really care about it, people who really stand up for it, people who really believe in it. Um, and so I now have had, you know, my first show opened in 1995, so I, I've had 30 years of a career where I know that the work is appreciated.

Mm-hmm. Um, and [00:31:00] for me to keep talking about how it doesn't make any money is I, you know, I feel like it's just, I, it's churlish and ungrateful of me at this point. Uh, I. It is an important context for the people who. Invest both emotionally and financially in my work to understand, uh, and I am now much less willing to tack toward the center than I was even 10 years ago.

Jonah Platt: Do you mean musically or story wise when you say sense? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I know you have Coming up next season, midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. Where does that fall? On this, on this continuum of center, outside the middle,

Jason Robert Brown: uh, this was Rob Ashford who, uh, called and he said, would you be willing to come into this thing?

They'd been working on it for a long time with a bunch of different ideas about what the music should be, and they brought me in and uh, and then they brought in Taylor Mack. And I thought, well, if you wanna do a show that's me [00:32:00] and Taylor Mack together, then you're not expecting it to be hairspray. You know, this is gonna be a, a really bananas piece of theater.

Mm-hmm. And we've loved doing it. There have been commercial producers on it. They are the ones who brought me on, so I assume they know what they're getting into, but I haven't spent a lot of time, uh, worrying about sort of how to make them happy. Like, oh, we have to, we have to change the show so that people will like it.

I think I've been like, we have to make sure that the show has the emotional engagement that matters to me. Sure. I think we have to make sure that the story makes sense in a way, you know, that matters to me, but that's really me more than it is about sort of. The people in Times Square trying to figure out what show they're supposed to see.

We were doing Honeymoon in Vegas,

Jonah Platt: which I loved, which I saw, by the way. Yes, with Andrew.

Jason Robert Brown: I loved Honeymoon in Vegas. It was, oh, I had a great time. In a lot of ways it was closer to me than the last five years, but there was a real resistance to it. I could feel it in [00:33:00] the city. I could feel it in the houses themselves.

And, uh, I never knew what it was. I still don't know what it was. Hmm. People didn't like it. And I thought, I'm blind. I'm clearly, I'm blind. And on a matinee day, I was walking from the theater to go and meet someone for lunch, and I had to walk through Times Square. And there in Times Square was the Naked Cowboy and all the characters, all the people dressed up as.

Batman and Pokemon and whatever else the fuck they were doing. And I, walking through that crowd, just shock, felt like all of these people, like I could film my theater eight times with just what was in front of me immediately. And I was like, I don't want you people to come to my show. If you can't see the show that I see.

I don't want you there. I don't this loud, noxious, bright environment. This is not what I do. This is not who I am. Mm. I don't If you want to be in the middle of this circus. I don't wanna write for you. There is this sort of very shiny loud. [00:34:00] Uh, brash world out there that likes to see things as being either one thing or the other.

And you are either on one side of that, and I don't want to, I don't wanna see the world that way. Mm-hmm. And I don't want to sort of simplify the emotional life of the work that I do to satisfy people who want it to be that

Jonah Platt: your love of Judaism and its music, not just of a narrative style, but also you've written.

Something called the Hanukkah Suite, which is sort of a Broadway, classical cho combo of all existing Hanukkah music, which is notoriously not great music. You made it sound a lot better. Um, and then you also wrote The Man Chitz Meringue, which is, you know, nu to, uh, a Meringue beat.

Jason Robert Brown: Well, yeah, that was, I used to do these shows with subculture for, uh, for six years I was in residence and I did a show every month at Subculture.

And so some, you know, sometimes. Those would coincide with certain holidays and I, Lindsay Mendez and I were [00:35:00] doing the show that month, and it was on, I think the second night of the Seder. That just had been the night that I chose, and I haven't done a second night of a Seder in years, you know? Mm-hmm. I used to do them when I was a kid, but I did my first night and then the second night was the concert, but so I said, well, we should, we should acknowledge the night.

And so I just, I had a huge horn section and all of that, and I said, well, we should all sing Diana. So I wrote it and then I, you know, passed around a bottle of Menches. Yeah, this was before Covid. Right. And, uh, and that was, that was it. I will, I will say that was probably my most Jewish night at subculture.

Jonah Platt: Yeah. The whole audience is singing Diana with you. Yeah.

Jason Robert Brown: Yeah. No, no. That was, that was definitely a night where, uh, you knew who I was.

Jonah Platt: Do you see yourself as the, the like primary Jewish mainstream composer? Today. 'cause you, you kind of are, I mean

Jason Robert Brown: like

Jonah Platt: I think

Jason Robert Brown: Bill Finn was certainly more observant than I was.

Jonah Platt: It doesn't matter. Observant. He is not writing Hanukkah, Sweetss, and Manches. Well, look, falsetto song

Jason Robert Brown: Falsettos is pretty jewy. [00:36:00] I don't know. You got a lot more under your belt. None of it was by design. Like I never was like, I'm here to represent the Jewish people. Right. I don't have any wish to be contrarian about it.

I, I like it. I wish I were a more observant Jew if I was going to be thought of as the Jewish writer. Like I don't think I kind of have the right to claim that just because on a daily basis I'm very aware of being Jewish, but I'm not observant. And I think to separate. Judaism culturally from Judaism as a religion, I think is totally fair in society.

But I really am separated. I really am a culturally Jewish and I totally buy that, but I'm not religiously Jewish.

Jonah Platt: I mean, that is the basis for a lot of what this show is, is exploring the different ways that people identify and connect as Jewish. And, and I will say, you know, from sitting over here, I I, I would take somebody who doesn't observe a single law and puts as much.

Jewish, you know, joy and pride out into [00:37:00] the artistic world as you do any day over some Orthodox Jew who's not creating the things you're creating.

Jason Robert Brown: Right. But I mean, again, what I was raised with is that those rules are there for a reason. And so to not observe any of the rules is to sort of not be Jewish.

And I think being an American Jew is very much about having that dichotomy be present.

Jonah Platt: Sure.

Jason Robert Brown: Um. And I think if you ask me what being Jewish is to American Jews, the values, what are American Jewish values, uh, I think there is something to that amount of nuance and empathy, that sense that things can be both one thing and also the other.

But you know, Tevye is saying on the other hand, that to me is the most. Jewish value in the world. The, on the other hand, what do you see on the other side of it? Um, how can you be so certain? And yet [00:38:00] also I see what your point is.

Jonah Platt: Yeah.

Jason Robert Brown: That to me is an essential Jewish value. And when I get really angry at.

Jews, it's betraying that particular value. Betraying that essential empathy. Hmm. And I have so much respect for Jews who can be observant, who are more observant, who can read the Hebrew, who, you know, who sort of are part of that world in a way that I just never felt. Comfortable. But I think part of my life story is that I'm never going to feel comfortable in any institution.

Wherever you put me, wherever it seems I most logically belong, I'm not going to feel comfortable there. Hmm. And I think that's true about Broadway, and I think it's true about being Jewish. I think it's true about being a New Yorker. I think it's true about sort of every part of my life, the thing that I most naturally gravitate to and most obviously illustrate.

I still don't feel like that's [00:39:00] where I belong.

Jonah Platt: It's a very. Holistic, astute, you know, observation of yourself. Well, I'm 54. I mean, I've had a long time to think about it.

Jason Robert Brown: Yeah.

Jonah Platt: Um, recently we had Stuart Weitzman on the show who produced a documentary about Jews in Broadway, and he said something like, 97% of all Broadway productions have had a Jewish writer or composer.

Like, what is that about? Why is it such a Jewish art

Jason Robert Brown: form? What, let's go back to the twenties. Well, you know, what is it that makes the Yiddish theater happen? Why that? You know, there are other, um, there are other theatrical traditions. There are African theatrical traditions. There are, you know, Viennese theatrical traditions.

There's something about what happens when you look at, uh. You know, Yiddish theater and what it meant to the community, the way that we expressed ourselves through theater, that was an important way to express ourselves. That was, you know, we're storytellers to be storytellers [00:40:00] that way. To embody those stories so that we get out, we gather a whole bunch of people, we sit them down in seats and we say, this is your story, and we tell it.

And there are Asian theater traditions, obviously. There's, you know, I, I. British theater traditions. Sure, there's all of that. But when you look at the Yiddish Theater, which is kind of an amalgam of a, a couple of different Western and Eastern European traditions, all sort of munched on top of each other, it doesn't look different than a Broadway show.

Mm-hmm. And so I think you think about how those people. On Second Avenue in those theaters eventually became the people who moved uptown to these Broadway theaters, and they are the DNA of what musical theater. Commercial musical theater is because it came from there, you know? Yeah. That was sort of what the, and when I talked earlier about sort of how we get whitewashed out of it.

Yeah. I think ultimately anything that makes a lot of money is gonna be co-opted by [00:41:00] the, you know, by the larger culture. Right. And you know, I think Broadway musicals have been an R being even more sort of co-opted by the larger culture because they can make a lot of money. But I think for a very long time it was this wonderful little niche that.

The reason that 97, I mean, I don't know if it's 97%, but what, who am I to argue with Stuart Weitzman? But if it's, if it's 90%, the reason is because we just knew the rules better because we could, you know, we made the game. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And now it's been, you know, a hundred years and other people are learning the rules or changing the rules or doing it or understanding it.

But I, you know, I, it was our game for a long time. It was our vocabulary. Yeah. And so I, that's, that's my best guess. So I don't. I know you were saying don't put it in a historical context, but for me it, it makes sense in a historical context. Yeah. 'cause this is the way our people have always told,

Jonah Platt: told stories and communicated on, on a personal level why, what has drawn you to tell stories in this way through this medium of musical theater.

There's something so [00:42:00]

Jason Robert Brown: elemental about it that in a lot of ways it's hard for me to analyze. I think, uh, my, my natural inclination. Always was to tell stories. And the minute I put my hands on a piano, I was like, oh, I can tell stories this way. And I, you know, I saw Broadway musicals as a kid and you know, I always loved them.

I always loved watching them and sort of what it meant to tell a story with a song felt very, you know, it felt very organic and beautiful to me. And I think the singer songwriters, who I loved. You know, told stories with music. Yeah. That's, that's sort of what they did. And so I just wanted to do that. I, there were so many paths that I felt like I could have gone down.

You know, I wanted to be a singer songwriter and I wanted to be an actor and I wanted to be a, a novelist and you know, like all of those things I wanted to do. But the thing that [00:43:00] combined all of that, the most naturally. Again, the place where I obviously belonged, whether I liked it or not, the, the, the place where I obviously belonged was just musical theater.

Jonah Platt: And I, I've read that you said that your career really took off after you dropped outta college and started working in a piano bar.

Jason Robert Brown: It was a place I saw where people liked musicals and where people I. Needed piano players and I could play the piano. And so I, you know, I would go in to play for other people and to, you know, to sing songs occasionally.

And then I was writing songs. And so I would say, oh, I can have people sing my songs. And I would give them to everybody just sort of willy nilly, just hand out my, you sing my song, will you do it? And I would be, you know, playing piano for their C Act. And they always ended up weirdly with a song of mine in their C Act, you know?

Mm-hmm. And, uh. I think that intersection of like the Jewish spaces that I came from and the gay spaces that I was in, just sort of, people started talking about the work and people started responding to the work. Uh, and it was sort of, uh, [00:44:00] spilling its way out there. And the very first versions we did of songs for New World were in, you know, upstairs at 80 eights in piano bars.

That's amazing. And, um, so much of my career. Based on the three or four years that I spent in piano bars, it's where I met Daisy. Prince

Jonah Platt: Daisy would go on to direct last

Jason Robert Brown: five years. She, well, she directed songs for New World. She directed last five years and she directed the Connector, which we did last year.

Uh, and so, you know, the, sort of the, the most important creative partnership of my life happened in those, you know, rooms. And Daisy introduced me to her father, who was Hal Prince, who directed Parade. Mm-hmm. So I, you know, none of. None of my creative life, the way it looks now happens unless I walk into 80 eights when I was 19 years old.

Jonah Platt: One of the like key pieces of advice I give to young kids and like, how do I start? What do I do? I say, just go somewhere New York or LA depending on what you wanna do. Find a community that speaks to you and just sort of plant roots there and start get to know people and do your thing and see what happens.

And I feel like you're just like the [00:45:00] total embodiment of that. Bearing

Jason Robert Brown: fruit. I remember somebody said to me, don't, don't take a money job doing the thing that you love. And I understood what they meant. Like, don't take a survival job as a, as a pianist like on a cruise ship. And then you end up just sort of like feeling like you're cheapening what you do.

And it just feels like, so I understand that, but I don't agree with it. I sort of think the reason I'm. I've ever been able to have a career is because the only way I ever knew how to make money was to just do my art. Was to just do it and to make sure that somehow, whatever I had to do, I had to get paid to do it, but I had to make sure that the money was, so I played piano bars and I made, you know, if I made $300 a week, that was a good week.

But I, you know, I went and I did it and I, you know, I coached singers and I played bad shows and I, you know, I did any, and I would've done [00:46:00] cruise ships. No one would hire me. I mean, it's like, there was a lot of stuff that, like I, anything that I can do to make money making music. But because I was so. Uh, in need because I was so desperate.

I ended up meeting a lot of people who were in the business. You know, people would say, oh, you need a pianist. I know some kid who will fucking do anything. That's the other second piece of advice is when you're starting out, I say, always say yes to everything. Yeah. I mean, well, I was in no position to say no to anything.

Yeah. You know, I just, I, I didn't come from money. I was like, I'm here in New York and I am. Barely scraping by every single month. Mm-hmm. And so if you need a piano player, great. I have this gift, I have this thing I'm supposed to be doing, and I've spent my whole life learning how to do it. And I'm still learning how to do it.

I have to go out and do it. So for me to like. Go wander down to Tribeca to where some like amateur theater group is doing a production of Maim. And just say, if you need a second pianist, I'll just sit here all day long. And IE even if [00:47:00] I play one note, it's good that you know I'm here. And I did that shit all the time.

Jonah Platt: I, I love that. It reminds me we had an actress Jackie Tone. I don't know if you know her on the show and she. Is as passion committed to acting as you are to music. And she said, look, I'm gonna be poor and be an actor, or I'm gonna be rich and be an actor, but I'm gonna be an actor. And like mm-hmm. I, I, I think, you know, that's what it takes to make it in this business.

You have to, you can't picture yourself doing Absolutely. Anything else.

Jason Robert Brown: Yeah. And I, I've never felt like I wasn't going to have enough money to eat. Mm-hmm. Um, because I have enough skills as a musician. Even, uh, if tomorrow, if Broadway shut down, I'm like, no, I, I still, I have enough skills. People need enough of what I do.

And that was honed over a long, long period of time and a lot of work.

Jonah Platt: The last big question I wanna ask you is, you know, I hear a lot from Jews in the Broadway community today [00:48:00] who find there to be somewhat of a, a hostile atmosphere, uh, in the wake of October 7th and sort of the explosion of. Jew hatred that we've seen.

What do you say to those people who are maybe afraid to wear their Jewishness on their sleeve right now? Coming from someone who has, you know, it seems, without even giving it a second thought, put that into his art for his whole career,

Jason Robert Brown: it's really easy to say. Just wear who you are no matter what it is.

If you're Jewish, if you're trans, if you're gay, if you know, whatever your, whatever your minority outsider status is, just wear it. Wear it all the time. And if they don't like it, fuck 'em. It's easy to say it. Totally understand people who don't, and I not only understand, but like it's fine. Uh, you know, there are the people who are going to have the courage to do it, and then there are the people who just don't.

And if you don't have the courage to do it, good [00:49:00] Lord, I live your life. It's okay. Um, I don't, I don't like people who are gonna deny their Jewishness, but I also don't think. You have to sit there with the, you know, the Jewish star on your necklace and, and, uh, you know, uh, the keep on your head. I, I, I think there's a lot of ways to be Jewish in this world that don't necessarily entail advertising it.

Um, I'm comfortable advertising it. I'm very comfortable, you know, when I, uh. When I started conducting, uh, I took conducting lessons at in high school, and the guy who was my teacher, he said, look, I can teach you a bunch of things. The thing I can't teach you is you're either a leader or you're not a leader.

He said, and the reason I'm teaching you is 'cause you're a leader. Hmm. And that is a personality type. Yeah. You either need the rush of being a leader. It is a rush. It's [00:50:00] hard, but it's a, it's a, it's a really satisfying thing to be able to do, but you either need that or you totally don't. And so I feel like I don't ever wanna push somebody to, to go against what their body is telling them to do.

It's a scary time to be anything, but I'm never gonna. I mean, I say it now, let's, let's say it now. I'm never gonna be hiding who I am because I'm proud of the people I come from. I'm proud of my family, I'm proud of my heritage. Um, I. I'm not always proud of Jews. 'cause some Jews are assholes. They're

Jonah Platt: only

Jason Robert Brown: human.

But I, I'm, I'm proud of being Jewish because I'm just, it, why wouldn't I be proud of it? I'm just am who I am. You know, there's nothing I, I'm proud of me, so therefore I must be proud of being Jewish. So, I, I, I don't have any issue with that, but I, it's a, it's a scary time and everyone's entitled to be scared.

Jonah Platt: Sure. I [00:51:00] love that I finished with that question 'cause that was such a great answer. All right. Lightning round and then we'll get you outta here. Yes. Challah, rip or slice. Either, either you go either way. There's no like, go-to thing. If I handed you a holler right now, you're gonna rip it or gonna slice it?

Well, if unless you hand me a knife, I'm gonna rip it. Okay. Do you have a favorite Jewish holiday?

Jason Robert Brown: I suspect I have a least favorite Jewish holiday. But let's, let's hear that. I probably, I'm kipper, I'm kipper ISS at Drag Man. There's just no way around. Kier is, there's no fun to be had. I'm giving you talk about breaking the fast.

You're only breaking the fast 'cause you had a shitty day. It's a, it's a, it's a bummer of a day. I mean, uh. Philosophically, I get it, but I don't, I mean, I'm not looking forward to Yom Kipper. There's nothing about

Jonah Platt: it. It's, it's my dad's favorite holiday. Well, there you

Jason Robert Brown: go.

Jonah Platt: You know, now you have something to talk about.

Uh, yes. At

Jason Robert Brown: the next workshop. Yes. Your dad must like suffering. It's not my,

Jonah Platt: uh, do you have a favorite Jewish food? What's the first thing that pops

Jason Robert Brown: in your my mother's brisket. What are you gonna do? It was great. I, I was say my Aunt Phyllis also made potatoes. She made these like twice roasted potatoes and, and nobody other than Jews would make them.

And they, they,

Jonah Platt: it was, it was perfect. [00:52:00] Shout out to Aunt Phyllis. If you could turn any biblical story into a musical, what would it be? Joseph's already taken,

Jason Robert Brown: a lot of 'em are already taken. I guess that's fair. I'm afraid someone will take me up on it. If I say it. Uh, say it. I don't know. Esther's kind of fun.

I'd get into Esther. Yeah.

Jonah Platt: She comes up a lot on this show. She's really having a, a moment.

Jason Robert Brown: Yeah, I, I,

Jonah Platt: yeah. Yes. That's a good one. You've done Diano, you've done Hanukkah suite. What holiday gets a JRB song next?

Jason Robert Brown: Well, given that both of those were accidental, uh, I, I think I will just let the, I will let the holiday come to me.

Let the faith decide. Yes, exactly.

Jonah Platt: Jason, thank you so much. Absolutely. This has been so awesome, and, uh, I know the audience is gonna love it, and I, I really appreciate you being here. Thank you. A standing ovation for Jason, Robert Brown. You're sitting, I can't get up, but you can. Uh, Jason, you are literally an inspiration to me in my work, and I've loved having this conversation with you folks.

Next Monday night, May 12th, I'm speaking at AM Shalom in Glenco, Illinois, Tuesday the [00:53:00] 13th. I'm at the High Tech Festival in Manhattan. And Wednesday the 14th. I'm in Scarsdale at the UJA Westchester Celebration. That sounded like a, an old borsch belt joke, but it's all true. We'll have links for everything in the show notes.

Please come out. I would love to meet you. Our show is also now available to stream on Izzy, along with thousands of other programs from Israel and the Jewish world, like the new prequel to sti. So check it out on Stream Israel tv, even if you're watching this, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast or Spotify.

Follow us on the Gram YouTube X TikTok, and sign up for our newsletter@jonahplatt.com. Alright, they're playing my exit music. I'll see y'all back here for the next Rap Sodic episode of being Jewish with me, Jonah Platt.