Being Jewish with Jonah Platt

BJJP SarahHurwitz FINALCUT
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Jonah Platt: [00:00:00] Fix everything wrong with Judaism.

Sarah Hurwitz: In a lot of campuses, you know, Israel is in the same moral bucket as the KKK and the Nazis.

Jonah Platt: Your speech has winned Barack Obama the presidency. He's not regarded as being particularly

Sarah Hurwitz: friendly towards Israel. I really wish that every celebrity who doesn't know what they're talking about, who is not immersed in this issue, I wish they would shut up.

Jonah Platt: My guest today is one of the great political speechwriters of the 21st century. Yeah, it felt crazy writing that too, but it's true. Her golden oratory has found expression in the mouths of iconic democratic leaders like Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, and Netflix producers Obama. She also loves to attend silent meditation retreats, which I find fascinating for someone whose career is also essentially about not using her own voice out loud.

A correlation, methinks. But most importantly, to me at least, she is the author of Here All Along, one of the definitive contemporary guides to what it means to be Jewish. This lady became a human yeshiva and did all the homework for you. [00:01:00] You just get to be enlightened and inspired by her intelligent and approachable insights, which Baruch Hashem shined through in her own voice, which was obviously here all along.

Please welcome the brilliant Sarah Hurwitz.

Sarah Hurwitz: That is such a kind introduction. I really, it's like, I really, thank you so much. And Jonah, I mean, thank you for using your voice to bring Judaism to people. Like, what an amazing thing that you're doing.

Jonah Platt: That's very kind of you to say. I'm

Sarah Hurwitz: really thrilled to be in conversation with you.

Jonah Platt: As am I. Speaking of which, so many people kept saying your name to me. They're like, you don't know Sarah Hurwitz? Like, I feel like you shouldn't meet Sarah Hurwitz. I mean, now that I've interacted with you, you're so kind and humble and funny and Jewish. So I, I get it. Why do you think people were saying?

Like, oh, Jonah, Sarah, yeah, that's a, that's a match. I

Sarah Hurwitz: think they just know I'm like hugely enthusiastic about Judaism. That I'm just this big, dewy nerd and I just want to tell you about it. And I think that that's, I think you share that. That's perfect. I think that you're sharing this passion and this love and this enthusiasm in a way that's accessible.

That's not like, Judgy or esoteric or [00:02:00] academic, but just like okay, this is a tradition with 4, 000 years of wisdom about what it means to be human that we desperately need right now. I

Jonah Platt: love that. that's exactly what this show is trying to be. All those adjectives, or not all those adjectives that you just said.

Right. In true Torah style, which you speak a lot about in your book. Let's bearish eat this thing. We'll start at the beginning.

Sarah Hurwitz: I've never heard it as a verb. I love it. Okay.

Jonah Platt: Thank you. I'm

Sarah Hurwitz: gonna use that.

Jonah Platt: Yeah, please, take it. You speak about in, in the book that growing up you were culturally Jewish. Right.

Even though that you weren't really even exposed to that much culture outside of a couple of holidays and Hebrew school. Mm hmm. Were there any anchors to Jewish identity or was it just sort of a surface sort of tangential connection?

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, my parents, which I'm so grateful for, they really felt, while they were not particularly engaged or observant, they really wanted us to have a Jewish identity.

So they sent us to Hebrew school, you know, which we didn't love. They dragged us to services twice a year at the holidays. You know, we did a kind of modified Seder with my bubby where it's like someone did the [00:03:00] four questions and we ate matzo ball soup. Right. There was some sense of Jewish identity.

Right. I feel lucky I didn't grow up with nothing. Right. But you know, I did call myself a cultural Jew, but I, I knew nothing about Jewish culture. I had no connection to peoplehood or Israel. You know, it's, I, I essentially meant like I feel Jewish in some way I can't define. And so I'll just call it cultural Jew.

Jonah Platt: Yeah. I like how you made that distinction because I think a lot of people use that term but have the same experience. So like, I actually don't. No Jewish culture. I'm not immersed in it at all.

Sarah Hurwitz: Exactly. Except

Jonah Platt: for, I just know that I'm Jewish.

Sarah Hurwitz: Right, and it kind of diminishes the people who are actually cultural Jews.

We say, look, I'm not particularly religiously observant, but I'm passionate about peoplehood or Israel or history or Jewish thought or art or music or food. Like, that's a very rich Jewish identity. But my Jewish identity of like, oh, I'm kind of intellectually inclined and also anxious. Like that, and like kind of funny.

It's like, really? Because plenty of non Jews have those traits as well.

Jonah Platt: But there is something distinctly Jewish in there, so I'm not sure what the more appropriate term would be.

Sarah Hurwitz: [00:04:00] Right. We gotta think on that.

Jonah Platt: Let's, we'll brainstorm

Sarah Hurwitz: afterwards.

Jonah Platt: Do you have any beloved childhood Jewish memories that stand out to you?

Really positive ones?

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, we used to do a Hanukkah party with family friends, and I think that That sense of Jewish community, right? Of like, being with good friends, of food and comfort and warmth, like, I really, I feel that. And I do think, you know, doing Passover with my Bubby, who is this amazing woman, as kind of, you know, as minimal as our Passover practice was.

I still feel a lot of warmth around that.

Jonah Platt: That's beautiful. Yeah. Love that.

Sarah Hurwitz: Yeah.

Jonah Platt: And you were bat mitzvahed. I, I,

Sarah Hurwitz: I was.

Jonah Platt: So, okay, I don't even need to ask the question. Say more.

Sarah Hurwitz: I mean. There wasn't like a, there wasn't like a Torah portion per se and I played the flute With the son of the rabbi who may or may not have been a rabbi We're not sure.

I asked my mom recently I was like, was that guy who did my bat mitzvah, was he a rabbi? And she was like, oh sweetie, of course I mean, yeah, I'm a spiritual leader for sure. Like

Jonah Platt: what? [00:05:00] What do you mean you played the flute with his son? What was his son doing and what did you play on the flute?

Sarah Hurwitz: We played, I don't remember what, we played like a song together and people read poetry I, I probably did a few of the basic prayers.

It was a very beautiful coming of age ceremony. That sounds very unique. Very personal. It was, it was a beautiful event. So I don't, you know, I'm, I have nothing bad to say about it. That's so nice. It just wasn't, it just wasn't very traditionally Jewish.

Jonah Platt: There's nothing wrong with that.

Sarah Hurwitz: No, no.

Jonah Platt: How are your flute skills these days?

Sarah Hurwitz: Terrible. Haven't played in decades.

Jonah Platt: So you have a quote from your book that I love. When it, when it comes to Hebrew school and getting bar or bat mitzvahed, we stop learning at 13, which is really when you are just old enough to start learning, which is like Duh.

Sarah Hurwitz: It's devastating.

Jonah Platt: It's totally right. And so backwards, what's the approach?

Like what, what changes do we have to make to create educated, connected Jewish adults? Because we're certainly failing that right now.

Sarah Hurwitz: Here's the problem, and there are so many reasons for this that are understandable and I have a lot of compassion for, but the average [00:06:00] American Jew, which I think I was 10 years ago, has no idea that there is Jewish wisdom.

Like, growing up, I knew what, I know, I knew what Catholics said about abortion and contraception. I knew what various politicians said about the death penalty, poverty, immigration. Did I know what Judaism said about those things? No, did I even know Judaism had wisdom about those things? No. And you could say to me, well, how, come on, Sarah, really, that's, that's, how did you not know that?

My only points of contact with Judaism were, you know, Hebrew school, which was the pre, age 13, so, kid stuff. And these two kind of dull services, which I didn't understand. And Passover, which I vaguely understood. And that's the, and Hanukkah, and that's the Judaism, right? The Judaism is for holidays. There's not It's the

Jonah Platt: rituals.

Sarah Hurwitz: It's the rituals. It's the, so it's like, why wouldn't you, you know, eventually find your way to Buddhism, or Burning Man, or therapy, or self help? Like, Jews are smart, thoughtful people looking for wisdom about how to live their lives today, how to deal with the challenges they face. [00:07:00] And at no point does the Judaism most of us grew up with show them that.

We have millions of pages of wisdom on this stuff. And the problem is that, like, you kind of, by the time, when you turn 13, I think that's when you're really mature enough to start grappling with it. You can, not to be too fine a point about it, you can be exposed a little bit before that, but that's the point where we stop and we don't even know what we're missing.

I think for me, that's the devastation and the heartbreak. When I finally discovered, like, wait a second, This tradition has Jewish wisdom about how I treat other people, like how I, you know, how do I help those in need? It's not just help the poor.

Jonah Platt: Right. It's

Sarah Hurwitz: like tremendous wisdom about how precisely, how much, how do you do this?

And I almost felt a little betrayed.

Jonah Platt: By whom?

Sarah Hurwitz: I didn't even know, and it, you know, and it's what, what ultimately led to my second book, but I think we, you know, Jews are smart. They're looking for deep, substantive wisdom, and until we can make our tradition really, you know, show our Jews what is in our tradition, I think they're gonna, going elsewhere, or kind of minimally engaging in Judaism, but [00:08:00] maximally engaging elsewhere.

Jonah Platt: Do you have a fix? Like, an idea of what we, what's missing? Is it a program? Is it more books like yours?

Sarah Hurwitz: I hate to say this. Fix everything wrong with Judaism. I hate to say this and it's, it's, it comes off so harsh and I don't mean it this way, but like we each have to grow up and I had to do it. Like I had to become an adult Jew and it was hard.

Right? And I think that the way you do that is you educate yourself, and that doesn't mean you don't have to read sophisticated, esoteric texts. I don't think you need to learn Hebrew. I think what you do is you start reading books like mine, you know, intro to Judaism books. Like, my book was really designed for this exact thing.

Right. Well, that's,

Jonah Platt: it's a big space, and yours is the only book that I'm aware of that sort of is layman's terms for all this stuff, or you know, the human yeshiva, you did all the work.

Sarah Hurwitz: Right.

Jonah Platt: So that regular people can understand the CliffsNotes. That's

Sarah Hurwitz: the thing. People don't have 3, 000 hours to learn, right?

So it's like, okay, no, 3, 000 hours. Forget that. But here, 10 hours, give me 10 hours. And I, you know, my book is not just how to, it's not just like how to [00:09:00] light the Shabbat candles. Like you can Google that. It's really the why to, you know, why does this matter? So it's, it's kind of going deep that way. I think taking an intro to Judaism class can help.

I think once you know the basic contours and you have that kind of. like net of like a net of basic Jewish ideas, then you can start to catch things in that net that are more interesting, that are deeper. You can start to pursue aspects of Jewish tradition that you're interested in. You know, maybe you're someone who likes to debate about ethical or legal issues.

Great. You can do that. Maybe you love to host Shabbat. You can do that. Maybe you're into spirituality. You can do that. But to do any of that, you need the basics. So I think starting with the basics, I think we as adults kind of have to take responsibility for doing that. There's no reason why we can't do this.

Jonah Platt: So you attended Harvard, earned two degrees, super lazy. So Harvard's home to many Jews, or at least traditionally has been. Fewer,

Sarah Hurwitz: a lot fewer today. Yeah,

Jonah Platt: which we'll see. Speak about my, my grandfather went to Harvard. A couple cousins went to Harvard. Okay. I've read that you said you never felt or saw any anti-Jewish anything.

When you were there, [00:10:00] were, were you aware of the sort of institutional past of being prejudiced towards Jews? Did you sense that at all?

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, so interesting. I, I tell college students today and the shocks them, I'm like, I could have walked through Harvard Yard wrapped in an Israeli flag yelling. I am a Zionist and I love Israel.

And I asked them, do you know what would happen to me? And they're like, what? I'm like, nothing. People would have just thought it was sort of weird, but it wouldn't have. I never once felt any anti Semitism, anti Zionism. Anti Semitism masquerading as anti Zionism. I never felt that. And I was aware of the past.

You know, the Ivy League has this kind of, Very ugly past with excluding Jews, but I felt none of that and Harvard was I think 25 percent Jewish when I was there I've never not for one second in college or law school Did I feel any discomfort for being a Jew and man is a different today

Jonah Platt: boy Harvard was objectively terrible last year.

We know all that and Jewish enrollment is now at a historic low

Sarah Hurwitz: Yeah,

Jonah Platt: are you still connected to the school at all? I mean, do you do you? Feel a sense of loss as an [00:11:00] alum.

Sarah Hurwitz: I do. I do. I feel a real sense of Frustration of disdain and I think it's yeah, there's something really off there I'm beginning to worry that education has become more and more like indoctrination, you know, and just the lack of viewpoint diversity yeah, the fact that you know faculty have political stands and they're kind of seem to be just You know, imposing them on students as opposed to, you know, I visited West Point, I spoke at West Point and I was just blown away by the, by the faculty there who said we pride ourselves on the fact that none of our students knows our politics.

And one of them said, if you argue X to me, I'm going to argue the opposite of X. If you argue the opposite of X, I'm going to argue X right back at you because I need to make you think. And I just, I was like choking up when he was saying this because after visiting so many college campuses where. That value set is gone.

By the way, that's a Jewish value set. You know, this is our whole idea of argument for the sake of heaven. It's that You're hearing these opposing viewpoints, you're getting, you're sharpening each other's minds [00:12:00] by arguing you are getting closer to something smart, and truthful, and wise, and I, I, I'm not sure that's happening anymore at Harvard, and that's sad.

Jonah Platt: You mentioned you went to West Point, and you, you've spent a lot of time on college campuses in the last year. Was that something you sought out specifically to do?

Sarah Hurwitz: Oh, it's funny, I, you know, When I was starting to work on my second book, I wanted to get a better sense of what was happening on college campuses.

So I reached out to Hillel, absolutely wonderful. And they said, look, we'll plan a little tour for you. You can kind of meet, you know, meet students, see what's going on. And that tour will start October 10th, 2023. We were planning this in August of 2023. So October 7th happens and I'm texting with them. I'm like, do you still want me to come?

Like, what should I do? And we decided the tour would go on. And so I. You know, it wasn't a response to October 7th. It was really planned beforehand, but it became a response to October 7th. And it was, I came straight from like 1997. To 2023 in the shock that I felt. I mean, [00:13:00] on so many were very distracted by these big encampments and protests, which are terrible, of course, but I'm much more worried about the pervasive systemic atmosphere on these campuses, like the air kids breathe in a lot of campuses.

You know, Israel is in the same moral bucket as the KKK and the Nazis, right? So if I said to you, Jonah, look, I'm a Nazi, sure, but I'm a liberal Nazi. That's insane, right? Or, oh, I'm in the KKK, but I don't hate minorities. Like, that's monstrous. Like, come on. We're not gonna have a conversation about that. And that's what I think a lot of students on campus hear when a Jewish student says, well, look, I'm, I'm a Zionist.

I'm a liberal Zionist. I care about Palestinian rights. It's like Israel is now so evil, so untouchable, that there's no point of contact you can have with it, just like there's no point of contact you can have with the KKK or Nazis. And once you're in that level of rationality, there's no conversation to be had.

You know, so many Jewish students told me they wanted to, they tried to meet with their classmates who were harassing them and like have a conversation, and normalizing Zionism. I [00:14:00] just thought like the extremity of this and it's so confusing for these poor college kids because their anti Semitism education has been Holocaust education.

So again, they get to campus, they're like, well, there are no Nazis here, but I feel really unsafe. And so I'm going to gaslight myself and say, well, maybe it's anti Zionism, not anti Semitism. And I have to walk them through like, okay. If a classmate of yours, you know, I was like, can I walk through your campus with a t shirt that says, I love Israel?

And they're like, oh god, no. I'm like, okay, what if a black student came to you and said, you know, my campus is great for black students, but I can't wear my Black Lives Matter t shirt, I'd get harassed. And the student's like, oh, that's racism, that's terrible. Great. You know, gay student says, my, my campus is great for queer students, but if I wear my Pride t shirt I will be harassed.

Not great. That's homophobia,

Jonah Platt: right?

Sarah Hurwitz: So I was like, so how come if you wear your Israel t shirt and you get harassed you don't think that's anti semitism and they're like, no, no, no, but the problem, it's not Jews. It's Israel. I'm like, okay, what if your Chinese American classmate wore a t shirt that [00:15:00] says I love China, even if your classmates knew what a terrible human rights violator China is, I'm guessing they would think, well, okay, I'm sure she doesn't love the Chinese government.

She's probably just passionate about her heritage or maybe she's studying Chinese history or language, I think your classmates would give her the benefit of the doubt. Right. And that is not something that happens for Jewish students. And it's, Dara Horne, who's one of my best friends and an amazing Jewish author, she talks about the difference between poor and anti Semitism, which is like, you're a Jew, you're bad, I'm gonna kill you.

There is nothing you can do to be good. You can't convert, you can't You're bad, I'm killing you. Whereas there's another kind of anti Semitism which is like, you're a Jew, you're bad, but there is something you can do to be okay. You can give up whatever it is that I, the majority, think is disgusting about Judaism.

And so, back in the day, you know, if you were a Jew, converted to Christianity, they wouldn't kill you. For some time at least. Yes, I have. For a while, maybe. If you got lucky. If you got lucky. You know, you could convert. And today, I think the, and you know, I think about my parents generation, the 50s, if you were a Jew, and You know, just [00:16:00] get rid of your last name, your nose, your jewy gestures, right?

Be less jewy and then you can, then you're safe. Today it's, you know, get rid of your Zionism and then you're safe. And so you see these poor kids who are like You know, they're like, you know what my rabbi growing up told me Israel was great and then I got to campus and I learned There were genocidal colonial Nazis.

I saw the light I had an epiphany and then I took anti zionism and anti colonialism into my heart and now I'm saved and their classmates are like now You're saved you're a Jew who's seen the light and it's like guys 2000 like really you can't come up with any new material Two thousand years. Like, I feel like we deserve better.

Like, it's just the same garbage about Jewish depravity, conspiracy, and power.

Jonah Platt: It works. Same garbage. broke, don't fix it.

Sarah Hurwitz: That's the thing. Once the neural groove is worn into the Western world psyche, it's like, it's a canyon, right? And it's not that hard to shove someone into a canyon.

Jonah Platt: Well, let me ask you this.

Did you, do you feel like you had an impact while you were there? Like on these, on these kids? Do you feel like they took in what you were saying and were able to feel safer or at least more prepared? [00:17:00]

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, I do. I mean, the Jewish students I met at these Hillel's, they are extraordinary. Like they, you know, they have been just told for so long, you know, your feelings don't matter, shut up with your, you know, your Jewish privilege, you need to de center your story.

And so they've realized they can't just throw a tantrum and have everyone scamper around them and help them. They actually need to use their words. They need to marshal facts. They need to make arguments. So they have really learned to think, you know, and when you have to de center yourself all the time, You spend a lot of time listening to other people's stories.

And so now they really, they have a very deep sense of the diversity around them. And they, they understand that. So there, I was very impressed by them. And I do think just to have someone tell them, this is antisemitism, it is not okay. Let me clearly articulate why this is so scary and upsetting for you.

And just to really show compassion for them and just say, like, guys, this is, this is not okay. I didn't go through this when I was in college. Like, I think that was helpful for some of them at least.

Jonah Platt: When did your tour conclude?

Sarah Hurwitz: Still going on. Okay, so [00:18:00] have you

Jonah Platt: seen a change since you started?

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, I do think this year things are better.

Jonah Platt: Good.

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, I think a lot of campuses It seems that way

Jonah Platt: from the outside, even. Yeah,

Sarah Hurwitz: I think a lot of campuses have started, just shockingly, enforcing their own rules. Right. Which they would enforce with regard to every other student group but Jews. So Right. They started enforcing their rules. I mean, I thinkbut I do think that pervasive atmosphere is still there.

I think it's maybe a little less in your face, but I don't, it's better, but it's still absolutely awful.

Jonah Platt: Did you go to schools all over the country? All different kind of places, sizes, everything?

Sarah Hurwitz: Everything, and people would say to me, Well, the real problem is the elite schools. I'm like, Nope, went to plenty of non elite schools.

Oh, the real problem is the small schools. Nope, went to plenty of, like, there's no pattern.

Jonah Platt: What kind of advice would you give to parents of high school kids now who are trying to decide where to go? Yeah,

Sarah Hurwitz: you really have to know your kid. Like, I think there are some kids who actually, they do just fine, even in the worst schools, they find the hillel, they find their community, they're tough, they're, they, you know, if anything, it's kind of a, almost a, I don't want to say good experience, but it, [00:19:00] they really kind of, they mature and grow through it, other kids are just not built that way, and you gotta just know, like, okay, how's your kid built, and if your kid, if you know this is really gonna get to your kid, Find a school where they're not and find a school with a really good vibrant like a really good vibrant Jewish community I think that is a big difference You know, you're looking at two things how anti semitic is the school and how solid is the Jewish community,

Jonah Platt: right?

Sarah Hurwitz: And you between those two things you can figure out what to do.

Jonah Platt: Good advice. Okay, so I want to talk now About we've hit your childhood. We hit college now. We're on to your your working life, right? 1998 you interned for Al Gore Before he was famous for being a documentarian. Most important question of the interview.

Did you write the lockbox speech?

Sarah Hurwitz: I did not. Did somebody actually write that? That wasn't Al Gore? I have no idea. You have no idea? I was just an intern. I wrote like video scripts and did research. So I can't take too much credit.

Jonah Platt: What was it, what was that like? I mean, was that your first gig?

Sarah Hurwitz: It was, you know, it was my first speech writing gig.

Yeah. Barely speech writing. [00:20:00] It was thrilling. I work for these lovely guys who would like, you know, let me come for videotapings, they'd let me do research, and they were so kind to me, and I You know, just to see that the job of a speech writer, like, you're at the center of everything, right? You're working directly with the principal, you're traveling, you're working with everyone in the White House.

I remember thinking, like, what a thrilling job. Cool. It was very cool. That's

Jonah Platt: awesome. Very cool. Okay, so then we jump to 2008. You're Hillary's head. campaign speechwriter. I just want to know, it's funny, it's like in your bios, whatever line, it's always like, okay, 1998, she's an intern, 2008, she's, I'm like, what'd she do for 10 years?

What happened in between? So briefly, what did you do for the next decade?

Sarah Hurwitz: So I did a junior job in Maryland state government as the assistant for a speechwriter. Then I was a speechwriter for a Senator. Both of which, they were kind of like, kind of failed jobs. I really just didn't, I didn't know how to write speeches.

I went to law school, which was, you know, turned out to be a life mistake, but I figured that out by about week three. I was like, Oh, no, this is not. But did

Jonah Platt: you see it through all three years? I did. I saw it through,

Sarah Hurwitz: and I was a lawyer for a couple of years, but I met a guy [00:21:00] named Josh Gottheimer there, my third week of class, who's now a congressman from New Jersey, and he had been a speechwriter for President Clinton.

So we started freelancing together, and then Hillary. How was she as a boss? I didn't have a lot of direct contact with her because it was a campaign, she was off and traveling. Right, she's all over the place. But I mean, she is so brilliant and she is so deeply passionate and she feels these issues deeply.

Like it makes me, it drives me absolutely bananas when people portray her as fake or as someone who doesn't care or who's ambitious, it's like, she spent her whole life doing this. Like her first jobs are working with children who are in really difficult conditions, like she's, She's the real deal, and I, I, it really frustrates me.

Jonah Platt: I understand.

Sarah Hurwitz: Yeah.

Jonah Platt: Your speeches win Barack Obama the presidency. Do you ever feel that way? Like, you're like, I did that. To anything, for anyone, you're like, no.

Sarah Hurwitz: No, because here's the thing, with people like the Obamas, like, people are always like, oh, you put words in the Obamas mouth. I'm like, sorry, have you met them?

Like, no one puts words in these people's mouth. They always knew what they wanted to [00:22:00] say, they always had a sense, so a lot of it, it's channeling them, it's like, it's much more of a partnership, so I never felt like, oh, that's my speech.

Jonah Platt: How was Barack as a, as a boss? Lovely.

Sarah Hurwitz: He's just, he's such a gracious, warm, just a lovely guy.

Yeah,

Jonah Platt: he's not regarded as being particularly friendly towards Israel. Did that ever come up or that was it still wasn't really on your radar yet? Not really

Sarah Hurwitz: on my radar. And I would say

Jonah Platt: I

Sarah Hurwitz: think that's overstated. I actually think if you look at his policy record, it's really not that different from Biden's or from anyone else.

It's like it's really, you know, and again, I need to immerse myself more. But I just I think that's been kind of overstated. I think there's a vibe sense that people seem to have that I don't think is quite right. But I, I I'll leave it for another day. Okay.

Jonah Platt: So then 2010, you become the voice of Michelle Obama, and you stick with her for the duration.

Yes. How was that shift, moving from, you know, the, the principal principle to the first lady?

Sarah Hurwitz: People thought it was a very weird move, because some people were like, why are you demoting yourself?

Jonah Platt: [00:23:00] Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: But the truth is, you know, I never felt quite at home in President Obama's voice. Right? And I didn't have the kind of long relationship with him that my friends who had worked on the campaign did.

And he was just talking about the economy. I mean, the economy was crashing, so every speech was like, The American Recovery Act has three parts. And I just, I don't enjoy writing about that. Yeah. It was so much policy stuff, and I kept helping her out on the side, and I was like, oh, this is fun.

Jonah Platt: Hmm. Like,

Sarah Hurwitz: her voice, I'm more at home in her voice.

What she's talking about is more interesting. And so I made what a lot of people thought was a very poor career move, but it turned out to actually be a great career move, because I would have always been a pretty mediocre speechwriter for him. But I was a really great speech writer for her. And we got to just work on some amazing speeches together.

And so I, I think so often when you do the thing that people think is gonna make you less conventionally successful, it actually winds up making you more conventionally successful. Like, kind of taking that weird path that just feels true to you. I think that's

Jonah Platt: such a great lesson that applies to any career path that you might be [00:24:00] on.

You gotta listen to your gut. And do what feels right and find It's more important to, like, find a home than it is necessarily to do the right move. The

Sarah Hurwitz: prestigious thing. Like, when you feel like you're swimming against the tide of your life, you know, like, you can do it. Like, you know, you're a strong swimmer, right?

You're tough. You're disciplined. You can keep swimming upstream, but it's just So exhausting and when you finally step out and just jump into a different stream, you're like, oh How delightful, you know, like I can kind of go downstream. Welcome to my

Jonah Platt: different stream. You're on it.

Sarah Hurwitz: I'm totally on it, right?

It's pretty great. Yeah,

Jonah Platt: I'm having a good time. Here's a tougher question How has it felt to see Michelle be so quiet since October 7th?

Sarah Hurwitz: So here's the thing and this is gonna be counterintuitive I'm really grateful to her. I am, because here's the, here's what's kind of driven me bananas, is people are like, she has to weigh in!

She has to say something! It's like, okay. And then, if she went and said something, I guarantee you, everyone would say, it wasn't good enough. It wasn't what we wanted. And then, there's a whole [00:25:00] other population of people who would say, well, she has to say something about, Gaza and the Palestinians and so she'd say that and then we would say oh, no, no, but she

Jonah Platt: mm hmm

Sarah Hurwitz: There is no clean win here Like we think there is there is not and I really wish that every celebrity Who doesn't know what they're talking about who is not immersed in this issue?

I wish they would shut up, you know I would just counter the people who said well she cared she was talking about the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram Right. That was when she was first lady and they were kidnapped from a school and global girls. Education was one of her core issues, and I would kind of gently ask those people like, did you speak up about the Boko Haram girls?

And they didn't write like she has a personal connection to those girls. Like I have a personal connection to Israel. I'm not going to speak up about communities that I don't have a personal connection to, and that's not necessarily bad, right? So I I actually, like, I'm, I'm, I think she made the right decision.

It's a very

Jonah Platt: interesting viewpoint.

Sarah Hurwitz: Yeah.

Jonah Platt: Let's get into Here All Along. Okay. Which is a fantastic book I've talked about several times on this podcast. Give us the quick logline. How would you [00:26:00] describe that book in a sentence or two?

Sarah Hurwitz: It's a book that really tries to convey The most transformative, radical, inspiring wisdom that we have about what it means to be human today.

About how to be a good person and lead a worthy life and find deep meaning and spiritual connection. I found that a lot of intro to Judaism classes are now using it as a textbook because it does cover the material but it's It's less a kind of how to nuts and bolts and more a real, like, why does this matter?

Jonah Platt: Yeah.

Sarah Hurwitz: And why do we need this?

Jonah Platt: I'm a decently literate Jew. I went to day school, day camp. I've been involved in the community, all these things. And I still found things that I didn't know that I was able to learn from the book.

Sarah Hurwitz: I've actually had very traditionally observant folks who are quite learned say to me, This book was for me.

And I'm like, it absolutely was not. Like, this book did not contemplate you at all as an audience. And they're like, no, no, no. But. You know, I don't agree with how you practice. I disagreed with many things in the book, but I saw your love for this and you made me re fall in love with this. And I saw [00:27:00] 550 end notes.

So I know you've done your homework and I know you love this tradition like I do. And I think there was a sense that they saw my respect and love for the tradition, and you know, something was bridged there, which was really nice, actually.

Jonah Platt: Speaking of those 550 endnotes, like, how long did this research take you?

It seems like you read every Jewish text by anyone ever.

Sarah Hurwitz: That's what it felt like, for sure. It took, you know, I wrote the book in about 17 months, and it was like, It should have been three years minimum. Yeah. And so, and I, I, but I was a new author. I had no idea. All I'd written was like a 2, 000 word speech.

I didn't know what it would take to write like a 90, 000 word book. So I was working much harder than when I worked in the White House. Like 70 hours a week, every week. I mean, it was a lot.

Jonah Platt: Here's another quote that I, I like a lot from your book. For many of us, and we've sort of talked about this, but I still really like it.

For many of us, our understanding of Judaism is frozen in childhood. limited to what our 7th grade minds were capable of grasping. While Judaism offers plenty to engage children, much of its deepest, most transformative wisdom is really only accessible to adults. [00:28:00] To me, that's sort of like the essence of, of what this book is about.

Sarah Hurwitz: Look, you can say to kids, be kind to the poor, or like, you know, be nice to workers. They can, they kind of get that. But once you're an adult, you can study a text which says, you know, if you have loaned someone money, And you, and you happen to see them coming down the street and you know they are still struggling and can't afford to repay you, you should literally walk the other way.

There's a Jewish text that says this. Because you'll embarrass them, right? Just, just walk the other way, don't run into them. And there's another Jewish text that says if you go into a store, you do, and you have no intention of buying anything, Don't ask the shopkeeper for the price of an item, right?

Don't be like, oh, how much is that? Even if you, if you intend not to buy it because you're getting their hopes up unfairly, you're wasting their time. And like, you can try to explain these stories to kids, but it's like, what you under, what you begin to understand as an adult is that You know, the very, like, weedy, specific, ethical nature of Judaism, where you're drilling down and down and down, it's cultivating this exquisite sensitivity to the needs and the dignity and the humanity of [00:29:00] every single person before you.

So it's not just like, help the poor. It's this very specific scenario, what, the guy, you owe money, la la la. You know, it's not just be kind to workers. It's this very specific scenario because Jewish law is training your mind to see very clearly this person before you. You know, it's like the eye doctor when they click the little machine and your vision gets crisper and crisper.

And I will point out that it is totally countercultural because our defining ethic for so many spaces today is let's just divide people up into two categories. Oppressor, oppressed, and we'll hate and love them accordingly.

Jonah Platt: Right,

Sarah Hurwitz: we're gonna take that Vision machine and click it the other way till everything is so blurry that all you can see are these two main categories and then We'll humanize or dehumanize accordingly and eugenism says oh hell no

Jonah Platt: Yeah, you

Sarah Hurwitz: are gonna just find each person in there like particular exquisite individuality and treat them accordingly in Jewish law There's always like the here's the rule But if the person has this knee, or but if the person has this disability, but if the person has that, then we do that.

It's always a, but if, but if, but if. And each one is a click of [00:30:00] that machine. Each one is getting you to see the person more finely. And like, how do you explain that to a nine year old?

Jonah Platt: I don't know. The first two examples you gave, I was thinking in my head. I was like, you know, I have nephews and cousins who are 13, 11, 9.

I'm like, I feel like the 9 year old, the 11 year old could have a lesson about when you go into the store, don't ask for the price because you don't want to get someone's hopes up. Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: That could be, you know what, you can do it. I do think there is a lot, there actually is a lot of substance you could deliver to kids.

But you know, we have a structure where it's like, you have a lot of adults who don't know there is Jewish substance to be delivered and they're like, I want my kid to have a bar mitzvah. And so just teach them to read Hebrew phonetically for that, and that takes up the hour and a half a week we have allotted for this endeavor of Jewish education.

Right. It's like, well, that's gonna be a problem.

Jonah Platt: We're missing the good stuff.

Sarah Hurwitz: We're missing the good stuff.

Jonah Platt: Okay, so you basically just alluded to this other quote that I'm gonna Read back to you. You say, I don't need Judaism to teach me how to be a good person, but I've come to realize that I do need it if I ever want to become a great person, which, you know, is in line with [00:31:00] that, that clicking of the machine getting finer and finer.

How's that going for you now? And, you know, what are you focused on? Evolving or improving in yourself at the moment,

Sarah Hurwitz: you know, it's a constant process of just being reminded that I could be doing better and not in a Here's the thing people often interpret this as like, oh I have to feel bad about myself or shame and I'm like no no No, no, not at all.

The Jewish conception of the the human being is like you actually have a pure soul And you make choices as to whether to honor that or not. Whether to honor bad impulses in yourself or good. And when you honor the bad ones, okay, you screwed up. You make tshuva. You return to the good impulse. You apologize.

You remedy it. There's no shame in bad feelings. Like, if anything, I think this is a call for very strong self esteem. For a sense of, like, I have this pure, good thing inside of me, and I can choose. And I can, when I mess up, I can return. So I think, you know, for me, it's like, studying Jewish ethical texts, I'm always just realizing, like, Okay, I could do this better, you know, or like, okay, that's something to think [00:32:00] about when this particular situation comes up, you know, I just, I was, there's a very basic text about, you know, paying a worker pretty immediately for the work they do and that's just something that I always have in mind, you know, when someone does some work for me, whether it's, you know, a research assistant or whatever, I make sure to pay them right away.

Something I'm really thinking about because that person might be depending on this payment. Yeah, so small, but like, Right there, you know, from the generic treat worker as well, which is meaningless, to the, okay, that means you pay them as quickly as you can because they really depend on that, you know, I think it's a constant process of just Having these things in mind and kind of refining character, and it's hard.

I screw it up all the time. Like, I've not, you know. It's, but it's more an aspiration that I think you slowly rise up to.

Jonah Platt: Part of the difficulty of imparting all of this wisdom is there's so much of it and so detailed. It's like, how do you even wrap your arms around? Yes. Where would you even start on a, I'm gonna make a lesson plan of the most important little Jewish value things.

It's like, You know, thousands and thousands of years and thousands of [00:33:00] volumes of text. Totally. It's a, it's a challenge.

Sarah Hurwitz: It's a challenge. I think you start where people are. It's like, okay, what are people struggling with? What do you think people need to do better? What would, you know, what's missing? And then, or what, what counterculture, you know, what is a kind of ill of our society?

Yeah. And what does Judaism offer? You know, I think about like the loneliness and the isolation epidemic that we have today. Jewish tradition, you know, everything about chesed, which is loving kindness, this idea that You know, you help out others in a way that you're really physically present with them.

And when someone is sick, you don't just send them flowers, you get your butt to their bedside. You sit with them. When someone's in mourning, you don't send a card. You show up at the funeral, you show up at the shiva, and you are with them physically. You know, that, that, that proximity, that closeness where we've just You know, we're all alone in our room on our phones, right?

Like, the Jewish wisdom about the criticality of showing up and being present, like, that's something we need. You know, I can see, okay, hole of loneliness, here's the wisdom that Judaism has to help us fill that hole, and I think that's where it starts. Like, [00:34:00] what are we missing? Where are we struggling?

Jonah Platt: What you just said, I feel like, also really applies to Shabbat.

Yeah. That element of showing up and coming out of our rooms and turning off our phones and all of that. We talk about Shabbat a lot on this show. You might love Shabbat more than anyone that's come on the show and everybody loves Shabbat. You talk about it a ton in your book and you're experienced with and where are you with it now?

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, it's funny. I, I, when I was in the White House, I experimented with having a pretty rigorous Shabbat practice and I loved it. And it was really. And then I came to kind of realize, like, this probably isn't the best idea for someone who's single and doesn't have kids, right? It's like, it kind of was, you know, I was kind of struggling with it a little bit.

Jonah Platt: It's just like a little isolating? It

Sarah Hurwitz: was like a little isolating. And so I was like, okay, how can I kind of dial it back? And now for me, you know, Shabbat is like, I don't like to go out to restaurants or to things on Friday night where I'm paying money to do something. It just doesn't feel right to me, right?

That's a weekday kind of thing. So I really, I try to do something with friends that's like in a home, you know, that involves community and togetherness. Ideally, Shabbat [00:35:00] dinner. Yeah. And then, you know, Saturdays, I try to just be present. I try to, you know, take it a little bit differently just to see it as a different day.

And I don't. I think Jews often, the people who are thinking about Shabbat, they get so caught up in the like, what rules do I need to follow and what if I do it wrong? It's like, okay, the general principle is as different from the weekday world as possible. Right? And like, I think the Shabbat laws are actually super helpful for that.

I think they're really wise for that and like a great thing to follow. But you don't have to follow every single one of them. A number of friends who are part of a modern orthodox community in D. C. and like they all live near the synagogue. They, you know, they, they, they're in and out of each other's houses.

It's like this, I mean, it almost feels like a bygone era. It's like the 1980s, like the kids are running wild. Everyone's just kind of relaxing and no one has anywhere to go.

Jonah Platt: Yeah,

Sarah Hurwitz: that's the thing. It's like no one's running off. No one's stressed Everyone is just so deeply there and you're all you're all creating the space together.

Yeah, I see it's really special. So it's [00:36:00] gorgeous Yeah, it's a beautiful. It's a beautiful thing

Jonah Platt: something that I really resonated with Just sort of a large idea that sort of pervades your whole work is that you're always looking to imbue Life with meaning which I do a lot too in different ways than you do, you know for me It's like if I'm gonna own any item like I want it to have significance like if I'm gonna have a lamp I want it to be my grandma's lamp, you know,

Sarah Hurwitz: totally totally get that.

I have a lot of that Yeah, so

Jonah Platt: I'm like it's like it annoys the hell out of my wife like weekly shout out to Courtney You know, everywhere we go on a trip, I'm like, Oh, let's get this and this will be our new kitchen thing. Cause then every time we use it, we're going to think about this amazing moment in time.

She's like, that's ugly. I don't want it. I want the one from William Sonoma.

Sarah Hurwitz: This is my entire house. It's comprised of things from various trips and things that were my grandmother's. That's exactly, I get that. What

Jonah Platt: are some ways, big and small right now, that you're allowing Judaism to infuse your day to day with meaning?

Sarah Hurwitz: As part of, um, some learning I'm doing, a class I'm doing, I've been [00:37:00] going through The Sitter, our prayer book, and I'm actually doing my own translations of the prayers.

Jonah Platt: Whoa. But

Sarah Hurwitz: just because I've begun to realize, like, the, the translations really distract me. You know, the English translations are just distracting and I get caught up on like, I don't like this word.

Is this what it really says? So I just, it's been fascinating to see the various roots and all of the, you know, each Hebrew word has a root, like a three letter root usually. And you know, it often shares that root with other similar words or with other even different words and their connections between the words.

You know, Hebrew is like this depth language. Yeah. It has a lot of depth to it. Every word has much more depth than it appears to have. And so that has been a very cool project for me.

Jonah Platt: That's

Sarah Hurwitz: awesome. Yeah.

Jonah Platt: I love the way that you talk about prayer, uh, which I feel like is a really significant barrier for a lot of people when they're,

Sarah Hurwitz: I get it, when they're

Jonah Platt: not connected or they're new to Judaism or whatever.

It's a very sort of. Impersonal, impenetrable kind of thing, if they don't know the words or they do, but they don't know what they're saying and they're just kind of saying, where are you with [00:38:00] prayer now, personally, and, you know, what, what would you say briefly to someone who is, is feeling that struggle

Sarah Hurwitz: scripted communal prayer in a shul?

It's actually, I would argue, not the most important form of spiritual practice in Judaism. I would actually argue that that belongs to study. Like, I actually think Jewish study is, is, I hate to say more important, less important. That's not a very helpful way of thinking. But like, Jewish study is a spiritual practice.

It helps you, I think, you know, hear the divine voice more deeply. And I think that's, and that, you know, I think that oftentimes people think their only option for spiritual connection is The scripted thing in the synagogue, and if they don't get that, well, game over. Study can be a very powerful spiritual practice.

When you were studying the words of our ancestors as they are trying to hear the divine voice, you know, back from Sinai through history, I find that incredibly moving. And there are so many Jews I know who, you know, what happens in a synagogue, they could take it or leave it, but study, they are like, right, they [00:39:00] feel this deep connection.

So I think I would. actually argue, like, if you're struggling and struggling with that, maybe step away and try study as a spiritual practice. How and where,

Jonah Platt: in a way that feels approachable and accessible. Yeah,

Sarah Hurwitz: it's such a good question. I mean, there are so many great organizations like Hadar, which, you know, is a wonderful Jewish learning institution in, in New York City.

And they run something called Project Zug, where they actually match you up with a partner, a chavruta, and you study a text together and you, they match you up with someone at your level. So you can do that. Or like, you know what, call your friend and be like, Hey, the Torah, don't know much about it.

Haven't really, you know, let's do. You know, the Parsha of the week, which is like the portion every week we read a portion of the Torah until we get to the end, and then we start over. We do this once a year. And so, you know what? You can Google online, okay, what this week's Parsha. Okay, print out the English.

And then, Rabbi Jonathan Sachs has amazing Parsha essays where he kind of explains the Parsha. He reflects on it. He's a beautiful rabbi of blessed memory. Print a couple of those essays. [00:40:00] Print Shai Held's Torah, Parsha book, which he has beautiful, you know, sort of a lesson, you know, he has beautiful commentaries on these Parsha.

Read the Parsha, which will probably be a little confusing, or off putting, or disturbing. Read these essays, which will help you get insight, and then talk about it.

Jonah Platt: First of all, I love that suggestion. I feel like you're identifying sort of a hole in, you know, institutional Jewish learning, where it feels like it's Hebrew school, or it's a yeshiva, and it's like really tough.

We're missing everybody in the middle who needs A much more accessible access point where, you know, I think a lot of people, what they like about the synagogue is, I mean, I was just like, they don't have to think there's a rabbi who's going to tell them what to do and how to sit in that, where to stand.

And that's, there's a comfort in that. And you also, you know, you, they're your spiritual leader and you want to be led. And I feel like if there was, we're missing that sort of dynamic of, let me lead you on this journey of Jewish study and depth.

Sarah Hurwitz: That's the thing. And look, I, you know, there's such, I don't mean to in any way [00:41:00] diminish or put down time Synagogue, like that communal experience is so beautiful and important.

And I'm sure a lot of

Jonah Platt: synagogues and anybody who works in one is like, Well, we have these programs at our synagogue. I'm sorry. I know you do.

Sarah Hurwitz: You're trying so

Jonah Platt: hard. They

Sarah Hurwitz: do, right? But like, people just don't come. I don't think people, I mean, so many Jews just don't know there's really wisdom there. So they don't even think about it.

I mean, I, you know. It is a hole that we have, and there are reasons why we've sort of evolved this way to kind of have, you know, the, the scripted communal thing in the synagogue, that's the Judaism, it's like, well, because that's sort of the Christianity, like, I think it's sort of, we've sort of evolved to be like, oh, well, that's what they do, so we'll do it too, but, interesting, study is such a central, vital, deep spiritual part of Judaism, and I just, it, it breaks my heart, you know, until I discovered this, I kind of felt like, gosh, I guess I just don't really connect.

I don't really And when I found study, I thought, oh no, no, I do.

Jonah Platt: Something you talk about a lot in the book and give great examples for is how to sort of infuse meaning into some of these stale, rote traditions, which really hit me [00:42:00] because for me Like, a lot of my Judaism, and I say this with love, is like, just about being with family and sort of doing the things that we've been doing.

And having our own family traditions, they're not necessarily the ones from thousands of years, but all of that just, just the tradition and the being together is meaningful. But, the things themselves don't, I'm definitely not accessing the full depth of their meaning. Totally. And, what sticks out to me is like, when you spoke about Passover, and ways to bring meaning into that in a, in a fresh way.

What are some of your favorite refreshes that you've discovered?

Sarah Hurwitz: Oh,

Jonah Platt: I love this.

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, I've been thinking a lot about how to bring meaning to the prayers, right? And like, there's one, I was, I was thinking a lot about the Haskiveinu prayer, which is this, it's a beautiful prayer. It's like, you know, we ask God to.

Lay over us a canopy of peace. That's what the translation says and it's like, okay. Yeah asking for peace It's like I don't know it's pretty but it like I don't it's never really spoke that deeply to me Right, and then I looked at the [00:43:00] Hebrew and it actually says sukkah of peace the word they use for canopy That's translated as canopy is sukkah.

A sukkah is an open air structure. Like it's it's really not a very sturdy structure Like, the idea that you are going to find peace in this fragile structure that is open to the wind and the storms and the rain, like, it doesn't say, build me a stone castle of peace. Right. Build me an underground bunker with a prepper cabin of peace, right?

It's like, go into this fragile shelter that could be, you know, that I could just blow down with my own breath, and that's where you're gonna try to find peace. And I think about, like, what a profound thing that we're asking for. What we're saying is, like, it's a moment where we acknowledge, like, wow, we're really vulnerable as human beings.

We're really, there's so many things blowing through our lives. We're scared and we're vulnerable. And in that space, what we're asking for is to find peace there. I thought like, wow, that is a much more relevant prayer than I thought. So oftentimes it's like, you know, trying to figure out like, what was the original intention of this practice, of this thing?

Like why, why were they doing this? Why did they care? And now, okay, how can [00:44:00] this matter to us today still?

Jonah Platt: At least for me, like thinking about Jewish study, It's from the outside. It's it always looks like homework. You know, it looks like it's gonna be serious It looks like it's gonna be boring. It looks like it's gonna be We're going to be talking about, like, what type of wool I'm supposed to use on this Tuesday.

Your ox gores Shlomo's ox. Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: Right, exactly. So

Jonah Platt: I think that's, you know, a large barrier is, is that. And it's hard to, to trust that there's going to be something worthwhile on the other side of

Sarah Hurwitz: that. That's the thing. And I think there are so many organizations like Hadar, like Svaro, which is this amazing queer yeshiva.

That are just they're actually doing the stuff that's relevant, right? They're taking the topic that we care about and bringing Jewish sources and wisdom to it So I think there's so much of that out there, but it's you know, it's not always easy to find

Jonah Platt: Yeah, what was the hardest part for you about writing here all along?

Oh my

Sarah Hurwitz: god all of it I mean the research was so hard like just going through all these I mean like We have a lot of really [00:45:00] academically written texts that are just a slog to go through, and that was exhausting. And then it was just like, any time I wanted to write a sentence, there's always like 20 counter arguments to the sentence.

Right? Judaism resists being put into clear, simple sentences. And so that could kind of feel paralyzing sometimes, where it's like, You know, you, you, there's just so many counterarguments that you have to anticipate. I was

Jonah Platt: thinking earlier in the interview, um, you were talking about like people aren't aware that Judaism has a wisdom about this certain thing and I was thinking that part of it is like it has a thousand wisdoms about it and you're like, well, I don't know which one is the thing.

There's like 700 different arguments about it. This

Sarah Hurwitz: is the problem. And it's. You know, when people are saying, well, what's the answer?

Jonah Platt: Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: Here's the thing. It's pretty rare that Judaism's like, there's the one answer that every single person ever has agreed on through history, right? Judaism often comes in dialectic, which is like, you know, love the stranger, like, care for the stranger, and also, you know, remember Amalek.

Remember that your enemies have tried to kill you. So be wary, be careful. So it's like, be compassionate and open, but don't be naive and be wary.

Jonah Platt: Mm.

Sarah Hurwitz: Both of those are the answer. [00:46:00] Right. And you have to hold them both, and you have to balance them both, and you're hopefully going to wind up somewhere between them.

That, people do not like that. Right, that is a hard, that constant, it's like, you know, this old idea of like, you know, the, you have to keep two pieces of paper in your pocket. One that says the world was created for me, one that says I am dust and ashes. Total humility and self esteem. You have to hold them both.

Jonah Platt: Do you know Rabbi Isaiah Rothstein?

Sarah Hurwitz: Yeah,

Jonah Platt: he gave me those two sayings in Hebrew on like a little coin. No way that I keep in my office

Sarah Hurwitz: I love that.

Jonah Platt: What's been some of the most Meaningful responses you've received from your book

Sarah Hurwitz: I've gotten these really beautiful emails where people have said like I felt so distant from my tradition I just felt like this wasn't for me and I read your book and I realized like it is for me Or, like, people who are like, I grew up with this terrible variant of Judaism that made me feel, you know, feel on every bad thing, and then I read your book and I realized, like, oh wait, that's not true, like, that's, that, that was a bad variant, like, that's not all of Judaism.

I've also just been [00:47:00] really moved by the people who are Super engaged. We're super in it who are like, no, but still there was something in your book for me, too Because I I hadn't expected that and that meant a lot. Yeah, so

Jonah Platt: cool mission accomplished. Yeah, I hope have you ever Considered or would you ever consider, you know?

Educating or being a rabbi or something on that line? I am

Sarah Hurwitz: planning to be a rabbi. Yay! Mazel tov! I'm in the process of applying to a program now and we'll see. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. You know, the self taught thing is fine and it's just barely gotten me through two books and now I'm like, alright, I really need it.

Some good teachers and people to really walk me through the depths. So that's yeah,

Jonah Platt: that's I'm excited. Thank you Okay, so we finally have arrived you're writing a new book. I'm writing a new book. Tell us about it

Sarah Hurwitz: This book was actually me stepping back and wondering you know I like I was so in love fell so in love with Judaism and was so busy writing this book and sharing it I finally during the pandemic sat back and was [00:48:00] like, why didn't I see all of this in the Judaism I grew up with?

That's so, that's so weird, right? It's, it's here. It's amazing. And also like, what was the deal with my Jewish identity for most of my life? Which was like, you know, I'm a Jew, but oh, I, I'm just a cultural Jew. And again, I didn't mean I knew anything about Jewish culture or Israel or peoplehood, like, it was not a substantive cultural identity, which is beautiful, it had no content, right?

It was like, I'm anxious and funny,

Jonah Platt: right?

Sarah Hurwitz: Or like, oh, social justice is my Judaism, which again, I knew nothing about what Judaism says about social justice. There are people who do, and that's a beautiful identity. Or like, I remember the Holocaust, which like a bummer of an identity, right? Like, that's just, I was like, You know, I realized I'd spent my whole life, like, thinking that was a really empowering identity.

Like, look at me, a modern Jew, just being a Jew I want to be. And I thought that it was empowering and freely chosen. And I, I then sat down and studied Jewish history. And I was like, oh, this is not a freely chosen identity. Like, this identity is really [00:49:00] the 2, 000 years of anti Semitism. and 200 years of Jews in a very understandable attempt to be safe and to fit in, erasing and giving up parts of their tradition.

And once I realized that, I was like, this identity is so humiliating. Like I want nothing. I just, I was like, so, I felt like what a humiliating identity. The way that I was just going around telling everyone, Oh, I'm not, I'm not that Jewish. I'm not. Like if you think of anyone you know from any kind of minority background or in any minority group if they went around Dismissing degrading their identity the way that I did as a Jew and so many others do you would You'd be horrified.

Right? You'd be like, what are you doing? So I really wanted to share, you know, this journey through history. I wanted to kind of share with Jews that this identity, like where this comes from, what we've lost, you know, in our effort to survive in the modern world. Right? Jews, we made ourselves, I think, more like Christians.

We gave up a lot of our traditions in an, in an effort to be safe [00:50:00] and fit in. And thank God because you and I are here today because of this. We're Jews because of this. I mean, what a, what a heroic and noble thing our, our, Ancestors did as they tried to find a way to be Jewish that would allow them to survive.

It's like, oh my God, the gratitude I feel for that and the heartbreak I feel at what I think they had to give up and what they had to leave behind. But now we have the privilege and the safety to reclaim that. So my book is trying to show Jews like, okay, What did we lose? How can we reclaim it? And how can we get rid of this very highly warped, infiltrated identity that has been really misshapen by both anti semitism, by Christian hegemony, and by a lot of really ugly forces?

Jonah Platt: That sounds really important. I'm really looking forward to it. I, I, in the monologue that precedes this episode, talk a little bit about what you just touched on. So it's actually perfect. Is there a title?

Sarah Hurwitz: The title is, As a Jew. And the subtitle is, uh, Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.

It's [00:51:00] actually available for pre order on Amazon now. When does it drop? For

Jonah Platt: real? September 9th. Do your pre order now, you set it in, forget it. Is it done done?

Sarah Hurwitz: It's pretty much done. I mean, it's so different. You know, my first book was, In no way controversial, you know, the thesis of my first book was like, guys, Judaism's amazing, right?

No one was like, no, it isn't. That was a pretty, this is a pretty edgy book, you know, and it's, I really, I tried to be very nuanced and careful and compassionate. But this book has an opinion. This book is making an argument. And I think my last book was more just like, let me share the wonders of Jewish tradition.

This is an argument about how Judaism has been shaped, how we've reacted to it, and it also contains two chapters on Israel, which is always a great thing to do for your career. So that's, I just feel like, why not? You know, let's just Good for

Jonah Platt: you.

Sarah Hurwitz: Seeing the lies people are spreading, seeing the ugliness, seeing just the unabashed anti Semitism, I was like, oh no, I'm not.

I think it was a cop out in my first book that I didn't talk about Israel. Although I do think actually it was the right thing to do because I think It allowed people to actually focus on the rest of Judaism, [00:52:00] but there was no way.

Jonah Platt: You can't talk about contemporary Jewish identity right now without talking about Israel.

Sarah Hurwitz: Absolutely. I also think in my first book I did not talk enough about Jewish peoplehood. And that's something I really regret, and so this book, I really lean into that. There is sort of a, this idea that Judaism is a religion, it's not.

Jonah Platt: Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: We, we, talked

Jonah Platt: about that a lot on here. It's like, to me, that's pretty much the number one misunderstanding.

Number

Sarah Hurwitz: one misunderstanding. And my, you know, Michal Bitton, who's this wonderful spiritual leader and scholar, you know, she talks about the difference between the ethic, ethic of like ideology, which is like, we believe in the same religion, hence we're connected, and the ethic of family, which is like We might believe in totally different things, but if we're family, I stuck with you.

Jonah Platt: Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: And, you know, Judaism, like, we are a peoplehood, we're a tribe, we're a family, and it, you know, we're, we, I think it's easy to lose sight of that. When you think of it as a religion that you either believe in or don't believe in, like, that is not what we are.

Jonah Platt: It's a lot easier for detractors to pick apart things about Jews if they're not a people.

Mm hmm. If they're just, you know,

Sarah Hurwitz: Exactly. A group of

Jonah Platt: [00:53:00] white people who believe something.

Sarah Hurwitz: Exactly. I mean, like, why should a religion have a country? Like, I mean, the levels of stupidity of that, it just boggles the mind.

Jonah Platt: I'm inclined to give those people somewhat of a pass. Mm hmm. Because I don't think it's stupidity.

I think it's lack of education. I think, I think there's plenty of Jews who don't think of themselves as a people. You know, as, you know, as, I think that's probably who your book is for, and so it's hard to expect, you know, the 99. 08 percent of the world that isn't Jewish to know that, if the 0. 2 percent don't even know.

Sarah Hurwitz: I agree, and it's not, I don't mean to call people who think that stupid, it's just the idea itself is quite stupid, right? Like, there's, there's just, there's not truth to it, but you're right, like, I think, I mean, did I know that, ten years ago? I

Jonah Platt: felt, no, I didn't.

Sarah Hurwitz: I thought it was Judaism and religion, like Christianity, and like, And, you know, we think that, and, and that's, you know, our ancestors had to do that to be safe, right?

They had to do that to become citizens in Europe. They had to say, oh, we're not, we're not Jews, God forbid. We're, I'm a Frenchman of the Jewish persuasion. I'm a Frenchman of the Mosaic persuasion. And they did that so they could be safe. [00:54:00] They didn't have the luxury of claiming their Jewish identity the way you and I do.

And, and like, because of them and their sacrifice. We have that luxury. And so, I mean, what a gift we have to be able to go back and reclaim all those things they had to give up.

Jonah Platt: Something I for sure think people don't really realize is that the religion was, was not even separate at all from the personhood until that big European migration.

The modern era. Jews or Jews,

Sarah Hurwitz: yeah. Before the 18 hundreds. It's like you weren't a Frenchman or a J that German. You were, you were just a Jew. Right? But you weren't like a person practicing Judaism.

Jonah Platt: Right.

Sarah Hurwitz: You ate Jewishly, you woke up Jewishly, you treated your, I mean, it was just, it was, it was your nation, your culture, your language, everything.

It was just so 24 7, and when you make that into a religion. It's something very different.

Jonah Platt: Yeah, okay, so now we're gonna end off on something fun a little lightning round So I'm just gonna throw a bunch at you I'm really bad

Sarah Hurwitz: at these Can't wait to see this I

Jonah Platt: bet you're great Favorite Jewish food? [00:55:00] I like

Sarah Hurwitz: matzo ball soup

Jonah Platt: You're doing great so far Favorite Jewish holiday?

Sarah Hurwitz: Shavuot. I like the study. Yeah, I like all my studies. feel there? Yeah! I love the like, the excitement about Jewish text. I've never, I've never

Jonah Platt: done a Shavuot study.

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, I've done some, I've done some of the Altai stuff off and online, not, not in person, but I think it's pretty cool.

Jonah Platt: I gotta, I gotta get more into Shabbat.

I need to do

Sarah Hurwitz: like the actual all night in person thing. You should, you

Jonah Platt: should like convene it.

Sarah Hurwitz: I should, I know that would be cool actually. Yeah, you'd be a great convener for some of these things. Something for the future.

Jonah Platt: Favorite Jewish book? Ooh. You can name a favorite Jewish book.

Sarah Hurwitz: Yeah, this is A, not, not most favorite.

But I think Rabbi Jonathan Sachs book, Letter and the Scroll, is just magnificent. Okay. It's really one of the best Jewish books.

Jonah Platt: Click that Amazon link. Favorite old timey rabbi? Oh,

Sarah Hurwitz: okay. Okay. I'm in Heschel. You wanna go with Heschel?

Jonah Platt: Okay. Yeah. I'm so old timey. He's

Sarah Hurwitz: not so old timey. I mean, you aren't like old timey.

I'm talking, I'm

Jonah Platt: talking old timey.

Sarah Hurwitz: You know, I gotta [00:56:00] say, I don't know, a lot of Maimonides doesn't speak to me, but I appreciate, I appreciate his credible mind, I appreciate the radicalness of what he was doing, like I, I, I, yeah, I go with the Rambam,

Jonah Platt: okay. What's a favorite or most used Hebrew Yiddish word in your daily life?

Sarah Hurwitz: Oh. Ah. I think Mishpacha. Family. I like that one. Nice, I like that. Yeah, I like that one.

Jonah Platt: Favorite Jewish tradition you didn't know about before researching for your book?

Sarah Hurwitz: Oh, that's interesting that I didn't know about. I mean, honestly, shabu out.

Jonah Platt: Yeah, there you go. Great.

Sarah Hurwitz: Didn't know that all existed. Yep. How embarrassing.

Jonah Platt: Not embarrassing. I'd say that's probably most American Jews.

Sarah Hurwitz: I also say study, Jewish study. Didn't know, didn't know about that.

Jonah Platt: Do you know the game do, dump, or marry?

Sarah Hurwitz: No.

Jonah Platt: You have to, I'm gonna name three people, and you have to say who you would do, who you would dump, and who you would marry.

Sarah Hurwitz: Okay, if they're celebrities, I probably won't know who they are.

Do, dump,

Jonah Platt: or marry. Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama.

Sarah Hurwitz: I mean, I can't think of them this way. I mean,

Jonah Platt: One of them you're going to do, [00:57:00] one of them you're going to dump, and one of them you're going to marry.

Sarah Hurwitz: My choices are Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, and Barack Obama. I cannot answer this question. You can't do it?

I can't do it. All right. Fine.

Jonah Platt: Favorite Jewish non profits?

Sarah Hurwitz: Ooh, there's so many good ones. Oh boy. Sepharia, big fan. Yep. Oh my god, what they have done is unbelievable.

Jonah Platt: That's like an online collection of all the

Sarah Hurwitz: texts. I'll just say Sepharia, but many others that I also love.

Jonah Platt: Sarah, thank you so much. Such a pleasure.

This was so enjoyable. Thank you for having me. This was great. I'm glad we finally got together. Everybody was right. You're awesome.

Sarah Hurwitz: You are awesome.

Jonah Platt: Thank you. Enormous thank you to the amazing Sarah Hurwitz for meeting me here in New York, where neither of us live just to record this. Again, her book as a Jew comes out September 9th, but you can preorder it now.

If you haven't yet subscribed to the podcast on audio and on YouTube, please do so. Those numbers are crucial. If I'm ever going to monetize this thing. Speaking of which, I'm looking for episode sponsors. If you're interested, head over to jonaplatt. com slash podcast for more info. [00:58:00] Love you guys. See y'all right back here for the next meaningful episode of Being Jewish with me, Jonah

Platt.