Being Jewish with Jonah Platt

[00:00:00] Jonah Platt: One of the social phenomena I've become most fascinated by is something I'll call false validity. It's when we as a society perpetuate a behavior or idea as being totally valid and acceptable, when it is in fact absolutely invalid by any reasonable or moral standard, and we know it's invalid, but for whatever reason we all agree to ignore this reality and allow the unacceptable behavior to continue.

[00:00:27] Jonah Platt: It's like we've all been hypnotized to cluck like chickens, Except we haven't been, but we're clucking anyway, and we could just, you know, stop. As it pertains to the Jewish world, I see this phenomenon most manifest as the false and harmful belief that it is somehow moral, or mandatory, or admirable even, to conflate a person's Jewish identity with one's own negative feelings about Israel's role in the Middle East.

[00:00:53] Jonah Platt: Put another way, it's the idea held by millions of people out there that simply being a Jew is somehow [00:01:00] controversial or political. Needless to say, that's bullshit. It's not true, it's contrived, it's wrong, and we cannot tolerate it anymore. You can debate an idea, but you can't debate a person's existence.

[00:01:15] Jonah Platt: Do you know what you call someone who makes aggressively negative assumptions about an individual based purely on morally bankrupt misunderstandings of their group? A bigot. A racist. Now I've heard the counter to my assertion of bigotry many times on social media, and it too is a sham. Something like, it's not racist to not support the genocide of children.

[00:01:38] Jonah Platt: Okay, first of all, no decent human being supports acts of genocide or the killing of children. We know this. To pretend otherwise is to be knowingly disingenuous because the real goal is just to spread this 21st century blood libel and demonize Jews. I say 21st century because Jews have been dealing with this a long [00:02:00] time.

[00:02:00] Jonah Platt: The original blood libel was the grotesque accusation during the Middle Ages that Jews were murdering Christian children in order to use their blood to bake Passover matzah. This horrific lie was widely believed, and used for centuries as an excuse to persecute the demonic Jews. Sound familiar? It should, because like all other elements of anti Jew hate, blood libel continues to morph over time into whatever disgusting accusation will most rally the masses against the Jewish minority.

[00:02:32] Jonah Platt: That's right, we're demonized so often and so consistently, we have our own term for it. Back to bigotry. Drawing a link of causational responsibility between any random Jewish person and whatever has or hasn't happened in Israel is racist. Does anyone blame random Chinese Americans for the very real Chinese imprisonment and torture and sterilization of over a million Uyghur Muslims?

[00:02:58] Jonah Platt: Of course not. That would be [00:03:00] racist. And most people don't even know who Uyghur Muslims are because this whole posture is just about hating Jews. Not about a sincere, globally applied principle. Also, simply displaying some part of one's Jewish identity is in no way an indicator of one's feelings about the Middle East.

[00:03:19] Jonah Platt: Lighting Shabbat candles has nothing to do with the war in Gaza. Wearing a Magen David has nothing to do with the war in Gaza. A bagel shop in Brooklyn has nothing to do with the war in Gaza. A social media clip about Jews and tattoos has nothing to do with the war in Gaza. We know this. And yet those who harass Jews in the name of being anti Zionist continue to get off scot free.

[00:03:46] Jonah Platt: So why is this obviously hollow and terrible behavior allowed to thrive? Why is it so pervasive that many, if not most, Jews believe that to openly identify with their own natural self is somehow [00:04:00] sensitive, or political, or making a statement? Why are we clucking like chickens when we could just not? We could just not do that.

[00:04:09] Jonah Platt: We could make a choice and in an instant, we could be not clucking. I'll tell you why. Because we allow it. We take the path of least resistance. We allow the anti Jew bigots to dictate the rules of the game, when we should be rejecting the entire premise of the game itself. But we're too afraid. Most Jews I talk to don't even really know specifically what it is they're afraid of, just that they are.

[00:04:35] Jonah Platt: It's some vague fear of maybe losing social media acceptance, or career opportunities, or maybe physical violence. I know standing tall as a Jewish person today can seem hard or scary, But we can't allow ourselves to succumb to fear. Can you think of any major Jewish figures whose lives have been ruined because they identified publicly as Jewish?

[00:04:58] Jonah Platt: Is Jerry Seinfeld suddenly not [00:05:00] selling out every theater he walks into? Is Scooter Braun suddenly not worth billions of dollars? Is Amy Schumer not starring in her own TV series? Sure, Jerry gets heckled. Like he hasn't been handling hecklers for 40 years. Sure, they get smoke on social media. We all do.

[00:05:16] Jonah Platt: But who cares? It has no bearing on real life. I understand there is a psychological toll, I have experienced it, but what do you think is actually more damaging? The fleeting comments of random, hateful, internet strangers? Or being so afraid of random, hateful, internet strangers that you're repressing part of your own identity and going through life as less than your full, authentic self?

[00:05:41] Jonah Platt: And as far as career and relationships go, yes, you might lose some friends or some jobs. But if those people are going to turn on you because you're a Jew, these are not the friends or the jobs you want. You deserve better than to work for someone who doesn't respect your humanity. [00:06:00] You deserve better friends than a bigot who puts their own misguided beliefs about a recent geopolitical conflict they are not in any way involved with over your own personal relationship.

[00:06:12] Jonah Platt: Believe me, by shedding these people from your lives, even if it's painful now, you're doing yourself a favor. You deserve better. Trim the fat, baby. Call the haters. And in the words of Matt Amorable from Wicked, the movie of which comes out this weekend, by the way, it's gonna blow your frickin minds, as one door closes, another one opens.

[00:06:33] Jonah Platt: To a person, everyone who has come out of the closet as a Jew ends up with new job opportunities they wouldn't have imagined, new friends and supporters and allies they'd never have met. And man, I'm telling you this from experience, pairing all that positivity and goodness and solidarity with a complete sense of self is a total level up in every way possible.

[00:06:58] Jonah Platt: And as for fear of violence, [00:07:00] we all fall prey to what's called the availability heuristic, which is when we judge the likelihood of an event. based on how easily we're able to recall recent examples of it, with no thought given to actual statistics or data. How many people, public figures or everyday folks, have been physically attacked around the world for being Jewish since October 7th?

[00:07:21] Jonah Platt: I don't know the answer, but it's not a lot. Let's generously say it's a thousand people. That's 0. 00001 percent of the Jewish population. And I don't say this to minimize the absolute horror of these attacks, or the very real fear they inspire. I But your odds of being in that 0. 00001 percent are obviously quite low.

[00:07:44] Jonah Platt: When in doubt, let the immutability of math put you at ease. So, the whole experience of coming out as Jewish is really kind of like walking through the wall at Platform 9 to get to the Hogwarts Express. You think you're looking at a painful [00:08:00] smash into a brick wall, but the rest of your life is waiting for you on the other side, and it's more than you could have ever dreamed of.

[00:08:07] Jonah Platt: And this goes for any identity. Being who you are, and feeling connected to that, proud of it, or loving it, is not political. Do not allow anyone to pretend that it is. If someone has a problem with you loving yourself, that is their problem, not yours. When I snap my fingers, You will all stop clucking. This is the 10th episode of Being Jewish with me, Jonah Platt.[00:09:00]

[00:09:04] Jonah Platt: Though she hails from Hackney and lives in Brooklyn, I first met today's guest in Israel when we both participated in an influencer lab under the amazing Tel Aviv Institute. I would wear sunglasses indoors to mask my inability to stay awake during the long presentations, while she responded enthusiastically to every single prompt and would basically not stop talking.

[00:09:25] Jonah Platt: Well, today, boy am I glad she hasn't stopped talking. She is a museum and gallery represented artist whose unique multidisciplinary practice incorporates sculpture, textile, ceramics, photography, and large scale public installations. She is a hardcore feminist, a hardcore mama, a hardcore Hebrew, advocating tirelessly for the Jewish people online, in her art, and throughout the art world.

[00:09:50] Jonah Platt: I'm so happy to be sitting down with her today. Please welcome my friend, Zoe Buckman.

[00:09:55] Zoe Buckman: Thank you. Thanks for

[00:09:56] Jonah Platt: being here. I really appreciate it. Thanks

[00:09:57] Zoe Buckman: for having me. I love your intro. Oh,

[00:09:59] Jonah Platt: [00:10:00] thank you. So, you're from Hackney. I am. East London. Unfamiliar terrain to probably a lot of the people who are listening to this show.

[00:10:07] Jonah Platt: What's the vibe in Hackney and what was the Jewish community like there when you were living there?

[00:10:12] Zoe Buckman: Okay. Yeah. There was no Jewish community.

[00:10:15] Jonah Platt: Growing

[00:10:15] Zoe Buckman: up, it was really, really rough. There was famously a street that was called Murder Mile, within Hackney. I know, so I'm so proud. I grew up there. Um, our house growing up was broken into and robbed six, seven times.

[00:10:31] Zoe Buckman: Six, seven times? Yeah. That's terrifying. Yeah, I know. I know. So, yeah, so you get the picture super rough. Why did you move? Was it I mean, there are other places now. Yeah, my parents couldn't really afford to move anywhere better. It would just be like, like uprooting us and exchanging it for just another set of problems.

[00:10:50] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. Yeah. You know, they liked the schools that we went to. It was also kind of amazing, you know, and it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot. It taught me things that you can't learn in schools [00:11:00] and university. And what street

[00:11:01] Jonah Platt: smarts. It

[00:11:03] Zoe Buckman: was a Turkish and Kurdish neighborhood. So very, very Muslim, but also loads of West Africa and Bangladeshi, Pakistani, and very, very Caribbean.

[00:11:12] Zoe Buckman: As well.

[00:11:13] Jonah Platt: Was there anywhere you could go outside your house where you could feel Jewish or was it really just inside?

[00:11:18] Zoe Buckman: No, it was, it was very much a private thing and I don't think I actually realized how, how there was that kind of incongruence with my Jewish identity and, and who I was. outside of the home until I was older.

[00:11:34] Zoe Buckman: So basically my, my Jewish identity was something that, although existed always, it was really like galvanized at the weekend because my mom would take us to our grandparents house. And there it was all the great aunties and all the great uncles, the Jewish jokes, the slang, crazy food. And so a very Jewish Saturday.

[00:11:55] Zoe Buckman: And then we would come back into the week and there wasn't that kind of [00:12:00] outside of the home. There wasn't that Reminder. And you know what's so different about growing up in London to now living in New York, where I've lived for 17 years, is that, you know, the UK is England's a Christian state,

[00:12:13] Jonah Platt: right?

[00:12:14] Zoe Buckman: And I didn't even really realize what a big impact that has.

[00:12:18] Zoe Buckman: You don't have Yom Kippur off. You don't have Rosh Hashanah off. So those words aren't even in The public vernacular.

[00:12:24] I

[00:12:25] Zoe Buckman: didn't actually know what these holidays were until I come to America and I see it's on the calendar and everyone goes home. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting.

[00:12:33] Jonah Platt: There's a lot of anti Jewish sentiment on display these days in the UK. Did you feel that when you were there? Or does that feel like a new phenomenon?

[00:12:43] Zoe Buckman: I did feel it growing up. I felt it in that like, you know, there were Not Jewish jokes like our Jewish jokes. They would, they would. Like we're Jews are the butt of the joke.

[00:12:51] Zoe Buckman: Exactly. I didn't realize actually that my brother told me recently that he was beaten up, um, on the way to school, like every morning [00:13:00] because he was the Jewish kid. I grew up in, operate in and, um, immersed in left wing spaces. Like we all do. I felt it from both sides where there would be like little micro aggressions.

[00:13:14] Zoe Buckman: I was, I worked as a cocktail waitress for like five years in London. And so I was serving very wealthy sort of aristocratic white English people. And so would hear and, you know, be adjacent to some antisemitism from that crowd, but where I would really experience it.

[00:13:31] Jonah Platt: That you would like overhear or directed towards you?

[00:13:33] Zoe Buckman: No, that I would overhear.

[00:13:34] Jonah Platt: Yeah,

[00:13:35] Zoe Buckman: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, Oh, Oh yeah, this club's run by a Jew. It's funny, isn't it? Typical Jew at the end of the night counting up his money.

[00:13:42] Jonah Platt: Right.

[00:13:42] Zoe Buckman: And you're like, that's all club owners counting up their money at the end. That's when you do that. Right.

[00:13:47] Jonah Platt: Right. Do you know what I mean?

[00:13:48] Jonah Platt: Of course. Stuff like that. Yeah.

[00:13:49] Zoe Buckman: But I would, I really started to feel it, um, you know, as a teenager and becoming a young woman in London, I would really see it in the left big time.

[00:13:58] Jonah Platt: What a shame. I

[00:13:58] Zoe Buckman: know.

[00:13:59] Jonah Platt: What are [00:14:00] your friends and family back home saying now about what's going on there?

[00:14:03] Zoe Buckman: Friends is really, really good.

[00:14:05] Zoe Buckman: You know, do I, do I have friends in London anymore? Um, no. I do have friends in London. A lot of my best friends have cut me out of their life post October 7th, so that's been a whole, like, kind of big, almost like, paradigm shifting event when all of us, everyone who has any skin in the game is connected in any way to this horrible, horrible conflict and war.

[00:14:30] Zoe Buckman: For all of us, it's just been amazing. really, really difficult. And that's been like an added layer on top of that. It makes you love your, your true ride or dies even more. I get a lot of messages from Jews in London who feel very, um, at sea right now and unsafe. Like some of us feel physically unsafe and some just feel like I can't in the workplace.

[00:14:53] Zoe Buckman: Just be myself and talk about things freely.

[00:14:56] Right. And

[00:14:57] Zoe Buckman: then what does that do in, in, in, [00:15:00] like in the, in the long term, if you know, you're speaking in coded language, which I don't know if, if you, if you do this, but I've like, literally I'll just be like, like, I'll, I'll say something like, um, let's say I'm in an Uber and I'm on my own and I'm on the phone and I'll be like, Oh yeah.

[00:15:15] Zoe Buckman: So are you going to that? Um, you know, that thing that we do on the Friday night, Someone will be like Shabbat and I'm like, yeah that one or I'll be like, oh, you know, so and so's visiting from um, from the From the motherland. Yeah, it's like you don't feel Comfortable letting people know that like you're Jewish or that you're connected to Judaism or the motherland in any way.

[00:15:39] Zoe Buckman: So you

[00:15:39] Jonah Platt: feel that way in New York that you can't

[00:15:42] Zoe Buckman: And a lot of that is also to do with like, being in a woman's body, and just being like, alright, I'm on the train, like, listen, I'm muggin Davida up, baby. I've got my highs and all of these things.

[00:15:52] Jonah Platt: Looking good, love it, we love the bling.

[00:15:55] Zoe Buckman: Having said that, I'm not an idiot.

[00:15:56] Zoe Buckman: So like often when I'm on the subway and I'm on my own, [00:16:00] which getting on the subway, you have to like, almost like get right with God anyway, just to like, it's

[00:16:05] Jonah Platt: already a dicey enterprise,

[00:16:08] Zoe Buckman: you know, I, I tuck things in often when I'm on the train on, on my own in London. I think that there is even less of a robust Jewish community.

[00:16:19] Zoe Buckman: And so, yeah, I feel really, really awful for my Londoners right now. It's hard.

[00:16:25] Jonah Platt: Yeah. I want to go back to something you mentioned. You said best friends have cut you out.

[00:16:29] Zoe Buckman: Yes.

[00:16:29] Jonah Platt: People that you like truly felt were your best friends?

[00:16:32] Zoe Buckman: Like sisters. Like I'm the godmother to one of their babies.

[00:16:36] Jonah Platt: To what do you attribute, like, A political, what to them is sort of a political thing happening, a geopolitics thing coming before a sister, like,

[00:16:49] Zoe Buckman: where does that, how does that happen?

[00:16:50] Zoe Buckman: It's, it's beyond, I think the only way to make sense of it is to understand that there is a deep, deep anti Semitism. Like ingrained in [00:17:00] people in the case. I'm thinking of this one bestie who um, who made me the godmother of her child So I know that she loved me at one point enough to be like, I want you in my kids life forever

[00:17:12] Jonah Platt: Yeah,

[00:17:13] Zoe Buckman: absolutely a sister of mine and then the week of October 7th at some point She unfollowed me on Instagram and I never heard from her ever again, right?

[00:17:21] Zoe Buckman: and it's like I feel that I My exhibiting any jewish pain in that moment Um any jewish pride ever like I feel like it suddenly became so like unpalatable that She was like I can't

[00:17:40] Jonah Platt: had the the jewish part of you been in conversation with her before october 7th Yeah,

[00:17:46] Zoe Buckman: absolutely. That's that's what's so interesting because i'm like there's there should be no surprise that I am upset that this thing happened

[00:17:53] Jonah Platt: She already knows that's A big part of your identity.

[00:17:55] Zoe Buckman: Exactly. And I've, you know, I've always said from day one and, and October 7th, like [00:18:00] my prayer is for peace and sovereignty and safety for the people of Palestine and for the people of Israel. But was I angry and upset? Yes. Like I know a lot of people who, who that day lost their loved ones. I know people who are still missing loved ones and praying for their return.

[00:18:17] Zoe Buckman: So like this does affect me and, and you know, the huge instance spike in anti Semitism. And so, you know, it's almost like counterintuitive to what being friends are. And it's, it's very, I think, emblematic of where we are at right now. Like ultimately we can disagree in friendships about anything and politics will do that.

[00:18:41] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, of course. Yeah, exactly. If I see a sister of mine and she is in pain and she doesn't feel safe, like, there is literally nothing that would make me run away from her, like, I will run towards her even if I'm like, babe, I don't, I don't agree with what you're saying right now and we can get into that later.

[00:18:56] Zoe Buckman: Are you okay?

[00:18:57] Jonah Platt: Yeah. I mean, that to me is, [00:19:00] is natural.

[00:19:00] Zoe Buckman: Right. And so seeing that that happened with three of my friends in London, wow. in unison, I guess. Then I'm like, well, we have a massive, massive problem of anti Semitism in the UK and in the left in that it's become so tribal and so cult like that it would make three like rational, beautiful women.

[00:19:22] Jonah Platt: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Zoe Buckman: Who are like, good women in, in, in all other ways, like act so incredibly, um, anti semitic.

[00:19:30] Jonah Platt: Very reminiscent of, you know, 1930s Germany.

[00:19:33] Zoe Buckman: What I've really come to realize is that the rise of the Nazis, it was like this kind of like drip drip effect.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] Zoe Buckman: Of, of anti semitism and it's like, started with pushing Jews to the margins and boycotting them and like a bit of broken glass here a bit of vandalism there oops this person's been fired oh this person's an untouchable now socially in the pariah and then that drip drip effect if allowed to grow will End in violence will [00:20:00] then develop into violence.

[00:20:01] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, hitler didn't make everyone in germany Anti semitic he just allowed them to be like they already were

[00:20:09] Jonah Platt: right

[00:20:09] Zoe Buckman: So that's what i'm realizing about these former friends of mine. It's not that they suddenly woke up and were like

[00:20:14] Jonah Platt: It's just socially acceptable now.

[00:20:15] Zoe Buckman: It was there. It was always there

[00:20:17] Jonah Platt: in america.

[00:20:18] Jonah Platt: It started On the right with the rise of Donald Trump sort of normalizing basically whoever you hate You're allowed to hate them out loud now on that side And then in the past couple years we're seeing now on the left via this, you know, fake progressiveness That you're allowed to to hate on juice from the left too, and that's totally okay As long as you call them zios instead of juice.

[00:20:40] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, man. It's fucking crazy

[00:20:42] Jonah Platt: So I want to transition now away from Terrible anti semitism things

[00:20:46] Zoe Buckman: about some jolly thing.

[00:20:47] Jonah Platt: Uh, no, this is not jolly either. Well, it's half jolly

[00:20:50] Zoe Buckman: I want to talk

[00:20:50] Jonah Platt: about your mom.

[00:20:51] Zoe Buckman: Okay,

[00:20:52] Jonah Platt: so there is some jolly but there's also some some sadness. Do you call her mom? Yeah, okay Um, so she died in [00:21:00] 2019 after nine years with cancer Yes, you have spoken about her a lot and and expressed your feelings for her a lot through your art Now while both your parents are jewish you once said in an interview your jewish identity you get from your mother Yeah, what do you mean by that?

[00:21:13] Zoe Buckman: So what I mean by that is that, you know, my dad, he grew up atheist, agnostic, and there's Jewish, there's Jewish roots there. Like the family name was Salomon, but that comes from Solomon. And so at one point that was changed and we really don't know the context of

[00:21:30] Jonah Platt: that.

[00:21:30] Zoe Buckman: Uh, but my mom was Jewish with a capital J and really like instilled in us.

[00:21:37] Zoe Buckman: We are Jews. We might not, you know, practice and my children, like you guys aren't going to know the prayers. Don't ask me about that. I can't be bothered. I'm busy kind of thing. But, um, but the Jewish identity and culture that was like very like rooted in, in, in who she was.

[00:21:58] Jonah Platt: Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, [00:22:00] do you have any source of like Jewish education or was just whatever came from your family?

[00:22:05] Zoe Buckman: No, absolutely zero. I mean it was literally Jewish jokes, babe Like that that was it and like a Jewish sensibility a generosity a kind of extending out to people in the community Come in like a value. You need to eat. You must eat. Let me feed you. Let me Roll you a spliff, I'm going to get you a cab home.

[00:22:24] Zoe Buckman: Do you know what I mean? Like all of that kind of thing and an awareness of our otherness and awareness of the history of suffering, but an awareness of our resilience and, and choosing joy and happiness. Choosing humor and the questioning, debating. Oh my God, the debating in my family was like pretty extra at times.

[00:22:47] Zoe Buckman: But I feel like because I've I've watched your podcast, obviously, and I've listened to all of these amazing conversations. So grateful that you're doing this. And I remember you saying something. Which I agree with and I don't agree with. Oh, [00:23:00] great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said, you know, everyone who comes on this show, most people who come on this show, say, I'm Jewish butt.

[00:23:06] Zoe Buckman: Mm

[00:23:07] Jonah Platt: hmm.

[00:23:07] Zoe Buckman: And what I thought of when you explained that, is like, first of all, you're absolutely right. There's, who's the arbiter of, of, of how Jewish one is or isn't? Like, fuck that, right? Yeah,

[00:23:18] Jonah Platt: totally.

[00:23:19] Zoe Buckman: And I thought about this Leonard Cohen, um, quote, where he's like, yeah, I'm Jewish, and in the way you can't be a little bit pregnant.

[00:23:26] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. You can't be a little bit Jewish. I love that. I love that. I love that. And I really agree with it. But that's not my experience at all.

[00:23:33] Jonah Platt: Cause my

[00:23:33] Zoe Buckman: experience, first of all, to use his analogy of being pregnant is that there's this daily growing reminder in your tummy, in your breasts, in, in, in your mood, in your ability to formulate thought you are very, very aware every day that you are pregnant.

[00:23:48] Zoe Buckman: And for me, with my Jewish upbringing and the lack of Jewish community, it has been an active choice for me. And in a way, I [00:24:00] find that quite exciting and hopeful, because I know that like the people like me, like, they, They can choose to step into it more than they have been And and it can be this kind of like it can be an action

[00:24:14] Jonah Platt: I actually don't think that's disagreeing with me at all.

[00:24:17] Jonah Platt: I wanted

[00:24:17] Zoe Buckman: to fight. I wanted to bait I know me too But I

[00:24:20] Jonah Platt: I agree with you and I think the the line I like to say is you're as jewish as you feel and I think that Is I mean what you're saying in the sense that if you want to be more connected You should be and you can be and you need to take steps in order to do that But what I just don't want anyone to feel like oh i'm not jewish because yeah I don't know this holiday.

[00:24:40] Jonah Platt: I'm not jewish enough because I don't do what you do.

[00:24:42] Zoe Buckman: Yeah agreed and that's That's exciting because there's something that we can all do. I think something I personally feel quite a lot of fear about is that if I look back at my family, all of my aunties and uncles married non Jews, which is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

[00:24:59] Zoe Buckman: [00:25:00] And we have like a very, very diverse family. We're like a school. It's beautiful. Um, every single one of my cousins and my siblings also did not marry Jews. And so what I want to do.

[00:25:14] Jonah Platt: What?

[00:25:15] Zoe Buckman: What I want to do is I want to get butt mixed with myself, me. Amazing, because you never have. Exactly. You should. As a grown ass old woman.

[00:25:21] Zoe Buckman: I'm trying to get my wife

[00:25:22] Jonah Platt: to do it. Weekly shout out to Courtney.

[00:25:23] Zoe Buckman: Yes, yes, Courtney. Maybe me and her will do it together. I

[00:25:26] Jonah Platt: think it's so cool. I would, you should totally do that. Yeah. It'll be so meaningful and amazing. And like anything in life, like you'll appreciate it more as a grown up than you would at 13.

[00:25:34] Jonah Platt: Yeah, so true, so

[00:25:35] Zoe Buckman: true. But I kind of want to do it for my nieces and nephews. Like I want, I want to save up and then fly them out and I want them to see that like, even, you know, as a 39 years young woman, like you guys can do this, you can step into this at any point.

[00:25:51] Jonah Platt: What about your own kid? Is there going to be a B'nai Mitzvah in the future?

[00:25:54] Zoe Buckman: My kid doesn't want to, my kid's 13 and [00:26:00] um, you know, me and, and their dad have like, we haven't really instilled the religious aspect enough. But I think this will also be a kind of like, yeah, but mum's doing this. So just know

[00:26:12] Jonah Platt: that

[00:26:13] Zoe Buckman: you can, exactly.

[00:26:14] Jonah Platt: That could be special. How special

[00:26:15] Zoe Buckman: would be amazing. That would be very

[00:26:17] Jonah Platt: unique.

[00:26:18] Zoe Buckman: I know. Listen, I'm trying the Jewish guilt. I'm definitely doing it like, Oh, you're

[00:26:24] Jonah Platt: Getting back to mum. Yes. You wrote a beautiful article about her for British Vogue.

[00:26:28] Oh, yeah.

[00:26:29] Jonah Platt: Oh, yeah It's beautiful a year after her passing. Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. So you all can check it out There's gonna this is actually gonna be really good show notes episode There's gonna be a lot of Zoe Buckman things to check out You had a line in it that really struck me said When your mother and best friend dies you have to die too and then rebirth yourself Very simple, but poignant way of framing that process of carrying on, I think, because you're not just saying goodbye to the person you lost, you're saying goodbye to life as you knew it forever.

[00:26:58] Zoe Buckman: Yeah.

[00:26:58] Jonah Platt: How is your rebirth going [00:27:00] five years out?

[00:27:00] Zoe Buckman: It still sucks so much. It's still, like, hands down the worst thing that has happened to me, the worst thing I've experienced. What's worse than that? Nothing. For me, nothing, and that's actually quite a long list of shitty things. Yeah. I feel like You know, trauma, any trauma, but especially a grief like that, like, it really does take something out of you, and you do, you do die, this whole side of you dies, and then you realize that, like, it will never be filled, first of all, like, that is there now, and that is part of you, and it's about kind of, like, living around that.

[00:27:38] Zoe Buckman: Do you know what I mean? And like, you try to put things back together, but you have to put things back together around this gaping hole that's missing. And, and you do. And, you know, and. And no one can tell you from the outside you look normal but inside it's always going to be there I think and that's unfortunately how I feel about grief and I, [00:28:00] I wish I had, you know, more optimistic things to say about it.

[00:28:04] Zoe Buckman: Some people were like, Oh yeah, you know, it's really just how much you grieve is how much you grieve a loss is about how strong that love was. And that's absolutely true. Mm hmm. But it's so shitty. Yeah, it still sucks.

[00:28:20] Jonah Platt: Yeah.

[00:28:20] Zoe Buckman: Yeah.

[00:28:22] Jonah Platt: Sorry.

[00:28:22] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:28:24] Jonah Platt: Also in this article, there was, you know, I, I detected a bit of bitterness from you about the way people around you were treating you in your grief.

[00:28:32] Zoe Buckman: Yeah.

[00:28:33] Jonah Platt: Not really giving you what it felt like you needed. At least that was my takeaway. Has that changed at all?

[00:28:38] Zoe Buckman: I think I've learned a lot. a lot since then. And then of course we had a pandemic and then we had October 7th. And I've learned to do a lot of radical acceptance in that, like, okay, I see you and I see who you are.

[00:28:52] Zoe Buckman: And that's not me. That's not how I show up for people, but I accept you. And then it's my choice is my choice of like, do I still want to fucks with you? Or [00:29:00] do I not want to fucks with you? British people avoid and don't want to talk about pain. Right. They're like, right. Move on. I carry on. Um, and American people would be like, Oh my God.

[00:29:12] Zoe Buckman: So like when you next see a butterfly, that's your mom. Have you seen any butterflies this week? Cause that's your mom. And I'm like, that's not my fucking mom.

[00:29:21] Jonah Platt: I love your American accent, by the way. That is really fun.

[00:29:25] Zoe Buckman: They're like that plant in your room. Like she's in that plant. I'm like, that's so creepy.

[00:29:31] Zoe Buckman: Don't say these things to me.

[00:29:33] Jonah Platt: I can relate to the piece of having to. Adjust expectations for people because I'm a very active friend. Yeah, and like so i'm the one who's making the plans I'm, the one who's calling on the birthday all that stuff and It took me, you know, like 37 years to be like, it's okay if other people don't do what I'm doing.

[00:29:52] Jonah Platt: I can still be friends with them and not feel horribly betrayed every time they don't do the exact thing that I would be doing.

[00:29:57] Zoe Buckman: It's a constant practice.

[00:29:58] Jonah Platt: Keep working the muscle.

[00:29:59] Zoe Buckman: [00:30:00] Yeah, man.

[00:30:00] Jonah Platt: So you and your, and your mother have complementary tattoos.

[00:30:04] Zoe Buckman: Yes! So she,

[00:30:05] Jonah Platt: she has It's F blank blank blank D O M and you have the R E E of freedom.

[00:30:12] Jonah Platt: Tell me the story behind that.

[00:30:13] Zoe Buckman: So we're in the garden, um, my mom was a big crossword woman, like totally loved language and things that were naughty and silly and whatnot. And I was like, we knew that she was dying. We knew that, you know, we had a finite amount of time left. And I was like, you know, what do you want to do?

[00:30:29] Zoe Buckman: And she was like, well, I'd like to get a tattoo. I was like, sick. Yes. Let's go. Go. What do you, what do you think you want to get? And she's like, freedom. And I'm thinking like, this is an old woman still in chemo. Like that shit's gonna hurt. I really wasn't sure if like, is that okay? So I was like, mom, you know, that's a great idea.

[00:30:47] Zoe Buckman: That's a, that's a lot of letters though. You know? And she was like, no, yeah, you're right. I could do F Dom. And, um, which of course is like, You know, A is an abbreviation of like, female [00:31:00] domination, and F, Fdomine, you know, fucked him, is also. Right. And then I was like, okay, so what will I get? And she was like, Rhi.

[00:31:09] Zoe Buckman: I was like, mom, this is brilliant. Genius. Yalla, let's go.

[00:31:12] Jonah Platt: That's so nice. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I like, I want to steal that idea. I love it. You absolutely can. I don't know if it'll be freedom, but I love the idea of sort of interlocking tattoos like that. Yeah. What role, if any, did any kind of Jewish tradition or spirituality play in your mother's final days or through her passing?

[00:31:31] Zoe Buckman: My mom, as, as I've explained, there wasn't really any religion and she really didn't have like a relationship to the idea of God and I did. And so that was something that I think was, it's not that there was tension, but we were just very different in that way. But her last Passover, she, I'd never seen her commit to like really, really doing it right.

[00:31:52] Zoe Buckman: And it was. Interesting to see because my mom was super irreverent and like everything there was an opportunity [00:32:00] to find like silliness in it. Right? And that's what I expected. That's how I showed up in the spirit of my mother. Her last seder got to my parents living room and suddenly she was like, So but you got to take this seriously and I was like, oh, right.

[00:32:14] Zoe Buckman: Fuck. Yeah. Shit. Okay. Yeah, we're

[00:32:17] Jonah Platt: doing something different here

[00:32:18] Zoe Buckman: All right, let's go and that was really interesting because I think that evening I got this sense I was like maybe there was this awareness of like I want to get this right because this is my last shot like I want to get right with Them upstairs, her upstairs, him upstairs, whomever upstairs.

[00:32:35] Zoe Buckman: Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

[00:32:36] Jonah Platt: totally. Yeah. Has that had any lasting impact on you, do you think? Yeah,

[00:32:40] Zoe Buckman: I think about it a lot. I think about it, um, every Passover, but I, I think about, so I've, I've started to light Shabbat candles on, on a Friday evening.

[00:32:50] Jonah Platt: Nice.

[00:32:50] Zoe Buckman: Pretty much cry every time.

[00:32:52] Jonah Platt: Why? What's that? What is that about?

[00:32:54] Zoe Buckman: Well, I, when I do it, uh, whether I, I'm doing it alone or whether it's the week that my [00:33:00] kids with me and we do it together. I can't help but think about the women that came before me and See, see fuck Jonah. That's okay. I think about what it took for them to continue this tradition What it took for any of us to be Jewish?

[00:33:18] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, is that someone really really had to want to pass this on it wasn't easy It was never been easy Like you it would have been so much easier to put it down and to hide that part of yourself, right? You you Literally be physically safer. But our ancestors didn't time and time again, they kept doing it.

[00:33:37] Zoe Buckman: And so on a weekly basis to do this very small ritual connects me back and it's typically done by the women. It connects me back to the women who I've come from. And I also can't help but think about. Sadly, um, the female hostages is I, that also comes in, into my mind, you know, where are they? Do they know that it's [00:34:00] Shabbat?

[00:34:00] Zoe Buckman: And, and, you know, I think about what's going on right now, um, on both sides of the conflict over there. And it just, yeah, it just brings me to tears pretty much every week. So jolly in my house,

[00:34:11] Jonah Platt: but no, that's so meaningful, you know, and I, and I love hearing you express that because People lose sight of that perspective a lot.

[00:34:18] Jonah Platt: Yeah that you know, we didn't get here by accident. We got here by being Incredibly defiant for thousands of years and sort of refusing to go quietly into the night

[00:34:28] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, exactly. But to answer your question I feel like once a week I I invoke a little bit of the spirit that my mom approached that last seder with.

[00:34:38] Zoe Buckman: Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

[00:34:39] Jonah Platt: giving it real weight and significance and taking it seriously for a couple minutes.

[00:34:43] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, and binding back to this ancient tradition and this lineage.

[00:34:48] Jonah Platt: I love that. If you do, how do you talk to your child about what's happening now for Jews in Israel? Like how much are you divulging?

[00:34:54] Jonah Platt: What are you trying to instill?

[00:34:56] Zoe Buckman: It's been a difficult balance throughout the past year. I think [00:35:00] that um, Last year, right after October 7th, I was so fucking distraught and in it and I was consuming so much, so, so much media, right? And, yeah, I was a little obsessed. And I don't think that that was a good example for my kid.

[00:35:18] Jonah Platt: Hard, hard to resist. I think we all were. I mean, what a, what a moment in history. Yeah. And you want to know, you want to know. What's going on? You want to feel connected. Yeah. It was all happening in real time. Yeah. So I mean, I think that's understanding.

[00:35:30] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. And I, I also, you know, I feel like one of my approaches to, to being a parent is that like, look, I'm human, babe, like I'm human.

[00:35:40] Zoe Buckman: So I, I'm, I'm messy. Sometimes I'm distraught sometimes. And like, like, that's hard for you to see that and be around it, but I'd rather you see me in all my shades.

[00:35:50] Jonah Platt: Yeah.

[00:35:50] Zoe Buckman: Then I'm like doing that kind of like, yeah. very English stiff upper lip. Mommy, Mommy's fine. Wait till the door's closed. Exactly. And then I break, you know, right now I'm trying [00:36:00] to instill like Jewish pride and also like a kind of, I guess the understanding that like knowing our history and knowing where we come from and, and Choosing to step into that in, in our lifetime and I'm trying to show my kids You can do this and like you should be doing this and I think we all should in in whatever way we can

[00:36:30] Jonah Platt: In that article you attribute so many positive aspects of your personality to having gotten them from your mom.

[00:36:36] Zoe Buckman: Yeah

[00:36:37] Jonah Platt: But I, I would be remiss if we didn't show some love to Pops. Um, you know. My dad

[00:36:42] Zoe Buckman: would be pissed if I didn't show some love like

[00:36:44] Jonah Platt: tell me a little bit about your dad and, and, and what you feel like you've inherited from him.

[00:36:48] Zoe Buckman: That's a good question, Jayna. Why are you doing this to me?

[00:36:50] Jonah Platt: You know, I, I, I go for the real stuff.

[00:36:54] Zoe Buckman: Um, my dad, The thing that made things difficult, to be completely honest, and he knows this so [00:37:00] hopefully he won't have a problem with me sharing this publicly, but my dad grieved really, really, really hard for three months, and then was like, yeah, no, fuck that. And, um, got a girlfriend, who he married very quickly.

[00:37:15] Zoe Buckman: And that came with what we, his children, felt like was this kind of like real, like almost Chapter of my life that involved your mother that's done come and get your things that you want of hers You know, I've I've moved on now kind of thing and we were like, I'm still wearing black bruv. Like wait What?

[00:37:36] Zoe Buckman: Like I'm barely starting to eat again, and I'm supposed to accept this new Your new like I I wish that he had kind of kept his new Enthusiastic feelings of love towards a new person. I kind of wish that he had kept that a little bit Quiet. Yeah, that was really hard for us.

[00:37:57] Jonah Platt: This is not the first example of this [00:38:00] that I have heard about or seen Yes up close You were saying earlier when you're talking about grief actually thought about it then you're like there's this hole that you can't refill Yeah, when it's your spouse you sort of Can replace it in a way.

[00:38:13] Jonah Platt: Right, right,

[00:38:13] Zoe Buckman: right, right. That's so interesting. But if it's

[00:38:15] Jonah Platt: not your spouse, it's irreplaceable. Like you can't replace your mom. You can't replace a sibling. You can't replace your best friend. Yeah, but you can remarry. You can have love again. So it's I think it's a different kind of grief that I don't think we like think about enough as we're going through these things that if I'm the person who's remarrying the other people around me cannot ever They can't remarri, they can't re-Get a mom.

[00:38:38] Jonah Platt: That's

[00:38:38] Zoe Buckman: exactly it, babe. And, and,

[00:38:40] Jonah Platt: and as, as much as those people deserve to. Move on and build a new chapter or whatever. It's very painful for the other people who can't move on in that way

[00:38:49] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, obviously we want my dad to be happy We absolutely do and he is which is fantastic and she's great and that's cool Thank God, but it was just really really [00:39:00] fucking hard.

[00:39:00] Jonah Platt: Totally. That's very fast. So you are now singles All right, you're single but your ex husband is a Jew.

[00:39:06] Zoe Buckman: Yes

[00:39:07] Jonah Platt: Has marrying a Jewish man always been important to you? Was that, was that a factor?

[00:39:11] Zoe Buckman: I think Jewish men are so sexy.

[00:39:12] Jonah Platt: Yeah. It

[00:39:13] Zoe Buckman: wasn't like a deal breaker, right? And it's still not a deal breaker, but it's like you would have to be a real ally right now for me to want to date someone who wasn't Jewish.

[00:39:23] Zoe Buckman: Um, I think my experience of being married to a Jewish man, and obviously, like, I'm talking in, like, absolute generalizations, but I see this with, you know, So many Jewish men is that they're fucking incredible husbands and wonderful fathers, like second to none. And so co parenting with my ex husband is kind of a dream.

[00:39:43] Zoe Buckman: Great. Yeah. And thank God, man. And

[00:39:46] Jonah Platt: one, one thing off your plate. Bruv.

[00:39:48] Zoe Buckman: And like, we really got each other's back. We're very, very aligned spiritually and politically in this moment. So like, it's really beautiful to have that support.

[00:39:56] Jonah Platt: Yeah.

[00:39:57] Zoe Buckman: But yeah, dating, like he kind of probably does need to be [00:40:00] Jewish. Yeah.

[00:40:00] Jonah Platt: Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. No, absolutely not. I'm, I care a great deal about it myself. Okay. So let's get into your art a little bit. Okay. Um, I loved looking at all your art as I was preparing for this. Cause you know, I've, I've looked at it here and there, but I really like did a little bit of a deep dive from my like macro.

[00:40:17] Jonah Platt: Overview of your work. Um, it was, it was fascinating to see your evolution, uh, from sort of broader themes and ideas to much more personal, raw, Zoe stories. It was also interesting to see it sort of mirrored in the materials you used, like you started with more synthetic, more impersonal materials, plastic, glass, and then, you know, you're moving to, you know, Boxing gloves with embroidery and lace and flowers and now you've got these, you know, full on Natural textile colorful ornate like 3d things.

[00:40:54] Jonah Platt: Yeah It's no surprise to me that the piece of yours that now hangs in the Whitney is [00:41:00] from tended the year 2023 art show you did here in New York. First of all, Mazel Tov for having a piece in the Whitney. It's a huge deal. Tell me about the piece itself and how you found out that they were putting it in the permanent collection.

[00:41:12] Zoe Buckman: There's this photo that we've had for years and my brother took it with a film camera. It's like a black and white photo of me and my now sister in law and we're sat on my bed and I'm drawing on her back. She's my absolute bestie. So it's really meaningful to me that a depiction of us is going to live in the permanent collection of the Whitney Museum of American Art.

[00:41:38] Zoe Buckman: I would never have imagined this when I was 17. And hi and drawing on her back and making very, very bad are like it was for a photography project that was like so basic one on one what a million, you know, teenagers have made in the past. But anyway, my brother captured what I felt was this like really unique, intimate moment because she's she's [00:42:00] not clothed and we're there and we're, you know, and I'm sort of like I'm I'm facing her back and I'm creating something.

[00:42:07] Zoe Buckman: And so I use that photo is like. The source material painted it onto this large tablecloth in my studio and then did a shitload of hand embroidery and a bunch of applique and stained with ink and whatnot and so the finished piece I hope shows not just this intimate moment but this idea of like all of this like growth and wilderness and potential because I think about who we were then as women and who we are today and I, I think about our Different awakenings at different points and like our kind of expansion as women.

[00:42:42] Jonah Platt: What's the piece called?

[00:42:43] Zoe Buckman: Songs Leak From My Bedroom Walls. Imagine if I didn't remember at all. That would be really embarrassing. You took, you took your second. Well, hey, because your, your

[00:42:50] Jonah Platt: titles are not easy to grab onto. They're just these poetic phrases. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you project it when you paint?

[00:42:57] Zoe Buckman: I've never tried to make photo real art, you [00:43:00] know, and there's plenty of artists out there who use projection and create these things. You look at them and you're like, that's a photograph. Oh my God, that's not a photograph. What the fuck? Yeah. That's never been what I've tried to make. Like I always want to show our mess, our toil, our imperfections, which is why there's a lot of threads, which is why I use ink.

[00:43:21] Zoe Buckman: Cause when you use ink on fabric, it obviously it bleeds out. It's quite hard to manipulate.

[00:43:26] Jonah Platt: And

[00:43:26] Zoe Buckman: so there is always this kind of like, Something's a bit wrong there and off and that's like that's what I think is interesting about life actually and then The embroidery like people have asked me, you know Like you why don't you just get other people to do that for you?

[00:43:39] Zoe Buckman: And I'm like because then it would turn out perfect

[00:43:42] Jonah Platt: and

[00:43:42] Zoe Buckman: then it wouldn't be about what I'm trying to say

[00:43:45] Jonah Platt: Is it imperfect because? Because I'm not very good. You're an imperfect sewer? Exactly that. It's not like you're like, oh, I need to mess up this line right now.

[00:43:53] Zoe Buckman: No, no, it's imperfect because I'm a fucking mess.

[00:43:56] Jonah Platt: Okay.

[00:43:57] Zoe Buckman: And it's not like I'm a professional. You can't

[00:43:58] Jonah Platt: get better at it. You can't do it [00:44:00] too much that you improve.

[00:44:01] Zoe Buckman: I must

[00:44:02] Jonah Platt: not. I want to bring up one piece from your 2015 show, Present Life, which was all about motherhood and pregnancy, where you actually turned your plasticized placenta into a piece. Yes.

[00:44:13] Jonah Platt: What was the reaction to that? And, and what does your kiddo think about it now?

[00:44:16] Zoe Buckman: The reaction was, wait, who's put, who's put a placenta on the Bowery? I guess we need to go see that. Um, my kid. That's good. That's a good thing, right? I mean, did

[00:44:26] Jonah Platt: it bring a lot of attention? Yeah,

[00:44:26] Zoe Buckman: it was, it was my first show and it kind of like put me on the map in the New York art world.

[00:44:31] Zoe Buckman: And a woman, a really big, um, art collector who's been a wonderful support asked to buy it. Because she's smart and she was like, that's the piece that I want

[00:44:41] Jonah Platt: and

[00:44:41] Zoe Buckman: I had to explain to her as an artist who had never sold a piece before, it was my first show, I'd never ever sold anything, desperately wanted her approval and to be in her collection and I had to be like, I'm so sorry, that's not for sale.

[00:44:54] Jonah Platt: You can have the neon one.

[00:44:56] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, you have the neon one, exactly. The reaction, you [00:45:00] know, I think my kid, has grown up with crazy artist mom who's like bringing things into the home and turning it into art and like putting our stories out there and I'm sure that my kid is going to be incredibly embarrassed at times in their life and hopefully proud at other times too.

[00:45:21] Jonah Platt: One thread through your work, femininity.

[00:45:25] Zoe Buckman: Yes.

[00:45:25] Jonah Platt: Which has already come up a lot in this conversation. Whatever you're tackling in your art, it's about women. It's by a woman. It is for women this past year, as you've alluded to, we've seen horrible. violence, kidnapping, sexual violence towards Israeli women.

[00:45:41] Jonah Platt: We've seen terrible oppression of women in Iran. Uh, has any of that trauma made its way into your art over the past year?

[00:45:48] Zoe Buckman: We saw the, um, testimonies from the people who handled the bodies. We saw the testimonies from the survivor. We all know, everyone knows or should know what happened [00:46:00] and the denial that is still out there after a year, that has affected me in a way that like, I, I will never get over that actually, like seeing what is pretty much the, the most widely documented cases of rape I've, I've ever known about in that the atrocities were filmed

[00:46:25] Jonah Platt: by those committing them.

[00:46:26] Zoe Buckman: Hello, like, why are we debating this? And then seeing how there was so many voices. online and in the left and in communities that I used to be a part of actually denying it and saying this is, this is a lie. This is made up in the context of Holocaust denial, where you've also got like, what is it? 30 percent or more than 30 percent of New Yorkers who deny or think, deny the Holocaust or think that we're over exaggerating and whatnot.

[00:46:53] Zoe Buckman: Then we know there's, there's a phenomenon going on, which is that the trauma that the Jewish people survival [00:47:00] experience is made up. They're making it up. Why? Because they are an inherently suspicious, nefarious people. That is definitely coming into my work. Um, I've been doing some, some writing. I use text in my work a lot in titles, but also like I embroider text a lot.

[00:47:17] Zoe Buckman: And so there will be some pieces that address this unfortunate phenomenon.

[00:47:22] Jonah Platt: Is the, the way you're tackling those issues in the art Just through the words or some of the pieces specifically, you know, uh, visualizing it?

[00:47:31] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, that's a good question. So at first, the first pieces that I was making, and again, like I was, as I'm sure, like I was paralyzed in, in terms of the studio.

[00:47:39] Zoe Buckman: I didn't make anything for a while. And then when I first did, I was painting violent scenes. And I started because I paint and then I do the sewing afterwards and so and I started even embroidering this one piece and I was like, this isn't you Zoe. This isn't like, I'm glad that I did [00:48:00] this. I got it out.

[00:48:02] Zoe Buckman: And let me put that away in a drawer and that's that's not what your next body of work is going to be. I don't want to live in that world in my studio every day. That's not what I want to put out into the world. And so I'm much more interested visually in speaking to though, yes, our, our trauma, but also like our resilience, our resistance, our joy.

[00:48:24] Zoe Buckman: And I, I do that through color and through textures, but also, you know, I'm, I'm doing these portraits of my Jewish family and community. And so I get to like, choose moments of, of what I feel like, like, Empowering moments or soft tender moments, but the text is where I'm really addressing this the rape denialism Which I think I can't not bring that into the work

[00:48:52] Jonah Platt: You posted on Instagram August 11th of this of this year that you have been put on lists had a solo show [00:49:00] Cancelled had people tell you they shouldn't work with you You've been stalked and harassed online and generally dealt with a lot of ostracism from people You've been working with for over a decade That sucks.

[00:49:10] Jonah Platt: How are you dealing with this new reality?

[00:49:13] Zoe Buckman: I don't really go to art events anymore. Do you find the

[00:49:17] Jonah Platt: whole community is basically an unsafe place to be?

[00:49:20] Zoe Buckman: It's not that the whole community is unsafe and the whole community is hostile because it's definitely not. It's just that I don't know in any given room in the art world, I don't know which one of these people.

[00:49:31] Zoe Buckman: Like, I know because people have told me, categorically, Zoe, a lot of people trying to ruin you right now. A lot, a lot of people chatting shit about you and like, you know, passing your name around to try and essentially get you cancelled. I know also overtly because a friend told me he was like, hey, like this person I follow suddenly started making a bunch of posts like directly and in no uncertain terms [00:50:00] about you.

[00:50:01] Zoe Buckman: And she changed her bio to I'm Zoe Buckman's number one hater. Um, I know. And, and, but like a

[00:50:09] Jonah Platt: hobby

[00:50:09] Zoe Buckman: and like a bunch of people that I know continue to follow her. And someone I know was like engaging in, in, you know, personally, no, I don't know who this woman is. I've never met her, but

[00:50:20] Jonah Platt: great.

[00:50:21] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. Awesome.

[00:50:22] Zoe Buckman: But this is, this is the thing where it's like, I, I don't know in any space in the art world. I don't know who hates me and is trying to ruin my career. So therefore I just kind of rather stay home, which also sucks. Cause I'm like, am I letting them win? You know? And it's like some weeks I feel way more like I can and I do, and I'll go someplace and I'll be like, actually, that was really nice and lovely.

[00:50:45] Zoe Buckman: And, you know, I get a lot of people now in the art world coming up to me and in hushed ways. Yeah,

[00:50:54] Jonah Platt: I imagine that's the case. I feel like a lot of people experience that and that sort of leads to another question I [00:51:00] want to ask you, which is have new opportunities arisen for you because of you being outspoken and being so proudly Jewish that wouldn't have before?

[00:51:09] Zoe Buckman: I'm glad you asked that because I don't want people to think that, you know, speaking out against anti Semitism is a career ruiner and Not only do I not want them to think that because I want them to join me, I do want them to join me. I am tired of, of being like, one of the only voices in, as an artist in the art world who is consistently speaking up about these things.

[00:51:30] Zoe Buckman: I'm fucking tired of it, Jonah. So I do want people to, to feel empowered to do it, but also the truth is, is that like, I've kind of career wise and sales wise, I've had like a really great year

[00:51:43] in,

[00:51:43] Zoe Buckman: in a time where, you know, the market is really bad right now. A lot of people are not buying art. It always happens when there's uncertainty and an election and wars and whatnot.

[00:51:52] Zoe Buckman: But I think that a lot of people and Jewish collectors are in a place where like they want to [00:52:00] engage with their stories. They with their histories that they probably haven't. Either in the past or, or for a while, they've been collecting art that speaks about other things and they're feeling vulnerable, understandably, and they want to, they want to own something that feels familiar to them and that makes them feel like it's speaking to them or about them or, or, or whatnot.

[00:52:24] Zoe Buckman: So actually, this whole horrible, ugly moment, though it's been, it's definitely had It definitely closed a lot of doors for me. It's also opened a bunch as well. So like, thank God. I

[00:52:36] Jonah Platt: think that's, you know, important for people to hear. I think there's really this And I've talked about it before on this show.

[00:52:41] Jonah Platt: There's a very vague fear. Yeah about being proudly Jewish People aren't quite sure what it is. They're afraid of they're afraid of as Van Jones said on my show smoke

[00:52:50] Yeah, it's

[00:52:51] Jonah Platt: like what is it and you might get you might have somebody mean to you online and say they're your number one hater You might this the other but [00:53:00] like here you are you're making money.

[00:53:01] Jonah Platt: You're still doing your thing. It's like You didn't disappear into the abyss. It's like, you're gonna be okay.

[00:53:07] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, yeah, it will open you up to a different audience or different cohort. And then you'll find people who love

[00:53:13] Jonah Platt: you and support you. And that feels better than, you know, having closet haters buying your stuff anyway.

[00:53:17] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:18] Jonah Platt: Do you think it's possible to salvage the relationship between the social justice progressive world and the Jewish community. So you, you've been very involved in social justice for a number of different causes and, you know, very famously over this past year, a lot of those people have disappeared when it comes to standing with Jews.

[00:53:35] Jonah Platt: And so do you feel like there's any hope there?

[00:53:38] Zoe Buckman: If I look back at like our people and our history, I think We have to recognize that we've engaged in a shitload of forgiveness, right? Because, like, you know, if you look at the attempts to wipe us off of the map over and over again, like, [00:54:00] obviously we are a people who, when we regroup, are like, okay, let's, let's move, let's go forward, shall we?

[00:54:06] Zoe Buckman: So I think anything is possible and I hope that there can be, um, Bridges and, and that there can be like restorative experiences. Right now, the thing that I feel that it would take would be like a really huge paradigm shift and a movement for those who have engaged in so much anti Semitic rhetoric, they would have to like make up their own.

[00:54:31] Zoe Buckman: Us feel safe again and seen again in order for there to be like a true, um, repairing. And I don't know if I think that's gonna happen at least not anytime soon, unfortunately.

[00:54:44] Jonah Platt: Yeah.

[00:54:45] Zoe Buckman: What do you think?

[00:54:46] Jonah Platt: The one constant is change, right? If something's up here, sooner or later it's going to be down there and vice versa.

[00:54:51] Jonah Platt: And you know, this isn't 1930s Germany. There are people speaking out. Yeah. And I feel like there will be a [00:55:00] return. to sanity. Um, it, it just, it, it depends a little bit on, um, how the next couple of years go. But I remain optimistic.

[00:55:10] Zoe Buckman: Good. I like that.

[00:55:12] Jonah Platt: Speaking of optimism, what's, what's up next for you in the art world?

[00:55:15] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. So I have, um, I have some work in a few different group shows right now. One is, um, SF MoMA, which is very cool. And that will then travel to the Perez Art Museum in Miami and Crystal Bridges, which is in. Arkansas. I have some work in the Norton Museum, which is in Florida. And then, um, I had, I had the National Portrait Gallery who also acquired a piece of mine a year or so ago.

[00:55:42] Zoe Buckman: They're going to be hanging that piece finally, which that'll be fucking cool for me on a personal level. Cause I'll get to go home to London to a museum that obviously I went to a bunch when I was a kid and I'll get to see something that I made. But my next solo show, please come. It's not for a while.

[00:55:57] Zoe Buckman: So I've got some time to really let the work. [00:56:00] Percolate, but it's going to be very much about, you know, our community and our community's relationship to the concept of the home. And that will take place next Miami Art Basel, um, at a gallery called Mindy Solomon. So that will be during Miami Art Basel 2025.

[00:56:15] Zoe Buckman: We'll get, you know, we'll get on our hovercrafts and we'll go. Sounds good to me.

[00:56:20] Jonah Platt: I better hurry. When, when is Art Basel? What part of the year?

[00:56:23] Zoe Buckman: It's in December. So that's December 25. Yeah. So that'll be November through January. Yeah, exactly.

[00:56:29] Jonah Platt: Amazing.

[00:56:29] Zoe Buckman: Yeah.

[00:56:30] Jonah Platt: All right. Let's do a quick little lightning round.

[00:56:32] Zoe Buckman: All right.

[00:56:32] Jonah Platt: Do dump or marry London, LA, New York.

[00:56:36] Zoe Buckman: Wait, do is fuck. Fuck, marry, kill. It's fuck, marry, kill. Fuck, marry, kill, but like the PG version. The PG version, yeah. Wait, say it again so I laugh.

[00:56:44] Jonah Platt: Do, dump, or marry, London, LA, New York.

[00:56:50] Zoe Buckman: You marry New York. You fuck London, you dump LA. Sorry babes, I'm sorry. Brutal.

[00:56:57] Jonah Platt: It's fine. It's fine. Uh. Also,

[00:56:59] Zoe Buckman: [00:57:00] also, like when I say you fuck London, also fuck London. Fuck London. Sometimes, sometimes fuck London also. Okay. You angry fuck London.

[00:57:06] Jonah Platt: There you go. There it is. Okay. Favorite Jewish holiday?

[00:57:09] Zoe Buckman: I'm really getting into Hanukkah right now. Yeah? Because I didn't grow up with that. And I'm like, this is awesome.

[00:57:14] Zoe Buckman: And it's an extended one. And we get to eat all those donuts. Yeah. I

[00:57:18] Jonah Platt: like it. It's a lot of good stuff. Yeah. Favorite Jewish food?

[00:57:21] Zoe Buckman: Labneh.

[00:57:22] Jonah Platt: Labneh. Yeah. Delicious. Yeah.

[00:57:24] Zoe Buckman: I want, I want to like, that's where I want to go after I've died. I want to go inside. Into the lava? What's your favorite Jewish food?

[00:57:31] Jonah Platt: I don't love Jewish food to be honest.

[00:57:34] Jonah Platt: Same girl,

[00:57:34] Zoe Buckman: but you asked me. You know, I'm

[00:57:36] Jonah Platt: going, I'm going to say chicken noodle soup with challah to dip in the soup. Oh yeah, that's a good one. And like matzah ball soup.

[00:57:42] Zoe Buckman: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are my favorites.

[00:57:44] Jonah Platt: Yeah. Okay, last, we're gonna do our social media questions. Oh, okay. That people have for you from our Instagram audience, which, remember, you can do every week.

[00:57:51] Jonah Platt: We announce our guests before they come on. You can go on and post your questions, and we're gonna, we're gonna read them to them. So, Gold4Bean asks, uh, my sister in [00:58:00] law called me an October 8th Jew based on me starting to wear a Star of David on October 8th. Am I not a real Jew?

[00:58:06] Zoe Buckman: You are so a real Jew, and thank you.

[00:58:09] Zoe Buckman: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:58:10] Jonah Platt: We, we need everybody.

[00:58:11] Zoe Buckman: Yeah, let's, let's have way more unity.

[00:58:14] Jonah Platt: Limor Gott. Hi, Limor. What can we do to help Jewish and Israeli artists who are being boycotted right now?

[00:58:20] Zoe Buckman: We can buy their art. Like, we can buy their art. We can, if we have connections to exhibit, share their art online. Like these, it's really, really important that we do this.

[00:58:30] Jonah Platt: Tina J. Gattan asks, What advice would you give to your younger self?

[00:58:35] Zoe Buckman: I am quite a sort of like no regrets person in that I feel like all our mistakes and the difficult things that we experience in our lives are there to teach us something, right? Um, so therefore it's hard for me to think of advice to give to my younger self who's about to make a whole bunch of fuck ups.

[00:58:52] Zoe Buckman: I think though it would be about one's instincts. I think it would be to just trust your instincts because you know that [00:59:00] voice inside of you. Like just. Always connect back to that because she knows that's so important and so

[00:59:06] Jonah Platt: so easy to let the the noise and other people's opinions and ideas Filter in there and you got to trust your gut.

[00:59:12] Jonah Platt: Yeah, love it Thank you so much to my guest zoe buckman for making the trek from brooklyn to be here with me today Thanks to yohan here at hoff studios for making everything go smoothly and thank you for being part of the being jewish family We are growing every week, so thank you. Please continue to share the show with your communities in whatever way you can.

[00:59:34] Jonah Platt: See y'all back here for the next super duper episode of Being Jewish with me, Jonah Platt. Thank you to everyone who makes Being Jewish with Jonah Platt possible. Executive Producer Matthew Jones, Story Producer Sean Libyashvili, and Editor Patrick Edwards of Rainbow Creative. Consulting Producers Bethany Mandel and Ariella Novek of Shield Communications.

[00:59:56] Jonah Platt: Social Media Manager Yuval Yosha, Graphic Designer Noah [01:00:00] Bell of Bellboy Creative. My incredible research assistant, Samantha Greenwald, everyone at Aura House Studios, the whole team at Jewish Broadcasting Service, composer Gabe Mann, and of course you, dear listeners, who even stuck around to listen to all these credits.

[01:00:15] Jonah Platt: Man, I love you guys.